[Struggle4Peace]

Chootoo and anybody else I'm sorry if I offended you but like I said I don't know how things are run in the americas but in the uk one cannot be poor, which is why many people hate ladies with flowery dresses who stretch their hand out as soon as they see a muslim.

[wheelworks]

Originally Posted by Struggle4Peace

Chootoo and anybody else I'm sorry if I offended you but like I said I don't know how things are run in the americas but in the uk one cannot be poor, which is why many people hate ladies with flowery dresses who stretch their hand out as soon as they see a muslim.

Don't worry about offending anyone. Everyone here is thick skinned donchaknow

[Aryan_]

Originally Posted by ChotooMotoo

the USA is not a socialist country, they don't provide a safety net for the poor. There are next to no social services. If you're on welfare, there are tons of doctors who won't see you. You can be very poor in the west. Food stamps do not cover the cost of your groceries. Housing subsidies don't pay for your rent, or electricity bill, and in most of the USA you can't live without electricity or gas (especially in winter) since you will freeze.

People aren't supposed to live on welfare, that's what jobs are for.

In the USA, a car is a necessity. You can't get along without one. You can't have a job, go to school or anything without a car.

Doesn't America have buses?

TV is not a luxury item

Now that's just not true

I had another friend who was also really poor (in the USA) she had 2 pairs of shoes, one for church, and one for school. Rest of the time she went barefoot. They had 5 kids in a trailor which had no electricity, an no running water. They actually used a modern outhouse. In winter, they had a generator, and once a week they went to their uncles house to take baths.

Don't tell me you can't be poor in the USA. The standard of living is different, but poor is poor. Having a car or a TV doesn't make you rich. Those things are dirt cheap here. Would you call someone in India with a motor scooter and a cricket bat rich? Of course not.

Just becuase someone doesn't live in a refugee camp doesn't mean that they aren't poor, and haven't experienced poverty.

What you're talking about is relative poverty, not absolute poverty, there's a BIG difference. And if you choose to live in the sticks, obviously you will have to put up with pulling locusts out of your cornflakes (though it wasn't your choice as a child). You can be poor if you have a disability or cannot work, but other than that, people in the west can't really complain.

Look at how many immigrants come to this country with nothing and end up living comfortably.

[shadha]

Struggle4Peace: You cannot be poor if you live in the west. In western dictionary poor == not having a t.v. in one's room or not been able to afford swimming lessons.

Family-to-Family


shadha-

[ChotooMotoo]

Originally Posted by Aryan_

People aren't supposed to live on welfare, that's what jobs are for.

There are plenty of people who have jobs, but cannot earn enough to live. There are plenty of working homeless families, and working families who rely on the foodbank.

Originally Posted by Aryan_

What you're talking about is relative poverty, not absolute poverty, there's a BIG difference. And if you choose to live in the sticks, obviously you will have to put up with pulling locusts out of your cornflakes (though it wasn't your choice as a child). You can be poor if you have a disability or cannot work, but other than that, people in the west can't really complain.

Look at how many immigrants come to this country with nothing and end up living comfortably.

Right. Blame the poor. I've heard that attitude plenty, usually from people who have never experienced what it's like being poor themselves. There is only so much you can do to change your situation, sometimes things happen which are beyond your control.

TV is not a luxury item. You can get one from the Goodwill store for $3. You can also get one for free from people who are moving or bought new ones. I saw a National Geographic picture from the 80's, they were in an Afghan refugee camp, and the people had a TV in their tent. It's not a luxury item anymore. Radios are not a luxury item. A BMW is a luxury item. A 3 bedroom Condo on the top story of a high rise appartment is a luxury. Living on the back of someone elses propery in a travel trailor (we had a family do that at our house) is not a luxury.

No, most of America does not have buses, or any other kind of adequate public transportation system.

There are also many many immigrants who come to this country, and live just as badly as they did in their home country, except here they have running water and the added stress of eviction if they can't pay their rent. Many immigrants come here and live in horendous conditions. I've seen many of these immigrants and their lives. Many immigrants make the comment "gee, life here is a lot harder than in my country" especially if they simple came for economic reasons, not political ones. Many of them actually leave, and go back to their home country.

Poverty is relative. It's all relative to the society in which you live, and your climate. Fur coats are considered a luxury item in the west, but if you're an Eskimo, it's a necesity (and it's made of seal, not mink). Electricity is considered a luxury in parts of Africa, but in the west where you rely on electricity for everything from food preparation to heating your home, it's a necessity. Do you see what I'm saying?

[Revert]

Originally Posted by Aryan_

Doesn't America have buses?

The American Public Transport system is not like the UK. I'm speaking from experience living in FL and NJ...

Originally Posted by Aryan_

What you're talking about is relative poverty, not absolute poverty, there's a BIG difference. And if you choose to live in the sticks, obviously you will have to put up with pulling locusts out of your cornflakes (though it wasn't your choice as a child). You can be poor if you have a disability or cannot work, but other than that, people in the west can't really complain.

Look at how many immigrants come to this country with nothing and end up living comfortably.

My Mum as most mums in my area was a Single MOther and in the 80's it wasn't easy for Single mums to not work, my mum had 2 jobs and benifits but it wasn't enough to feed and clothe 2 kids.

HOwever the situation in the UK under a labour Government is more favourable to Single Mothers and thoses who refuse to work. However living on benifits is still not akin to being well off. In many places in the UK poverty is rampant.

[psychoteddybear]

.......................

[MasterONaniFiqh]

Originally Posted by WarriorAndWiseman

When people tell you their stories they do it so they can share their experiences. Not so you can rate their lives. Jack@$$.

hey, i called you a winner!

and i didn't rate your life. but if you're going to be like that about it, i give you a 6.8

some people....

need to learn to take a joke. and this thread clearly does seem to have a comparative sort of feel to it from the git go.

when discussing such a heady topic, i find it's best to infuse it with a bit of light heartedness. to keep people from jumping off bridges and what not. but what do i know, i'm just some spoiled non-poor person! boo hoo for me!

and you know what? i take it back. chotoomotoo is the winner! so there.

(seriously, have to agree with most everything chotoo's said.)

[ChotooMotoo]

Originally Posted by MasterONaniFiqh

and you know what? i take it back. chotoomotoo is the winner! so there.

(seriously, have to agree with most everything chotoo's said.)

Oooh Oooh! What's the prize? A 16 pack of oriental flavored raman noodels? Hmmm.... dinner....

We actually figured it out once, and the cheapest things you can eat are: bagged corn flakes, raman noodes, green split peas (if you buy bulk) and turkey that you buy on Thanksgiving day (less than $1.00 per lb and you can make soup and things from the carcass), and spagetti's. Ham is also really cheap, but it's haram. Potatoes and Onions are also very inexpensive (especially in Washington and Idaho) plus all kinds of beans. If you know someone with an orchard or a farm, you can get free fruit all the time too.

I feel sorry for poor city people. Their diets must be so aweful.

[Aryan_]

Originally Posted by ChotooMotoo

There are plenty of people who have jobs, but cannot earn enough to live. There are plenty of working homeless families, and working families who rely on the foodbank.

Right. Blame the poor. I've heard that attitude plenty, usually from people who have never experienced what it's like being poor themselves. There is only so much you can do to change your situation, sometimes things happen which are beyond your control.

TV is not a luxury item. You can get one from the Goodwill store for $3. You can also get one for free from people who are moving or bought new ones. I saw a National Geographic picture from the 80's, they were in an Afghan refugee camp, and the people had a TV in their tent. It's not a luxury item anymore. Radios are not a luxury item. A BMW is a luxury item. A 3 bedroom Condo on the top story of a high rise appartment is a luxury. Living on the back of someone elses propery in a travel trailor (we had a family do that at our house) is not a luxury.

No, most of America does not have buses, or any other kind of adequate public transportation system.

There are also many many immigrants who come to this country, and live just as badly as they did in their home country, except here they have running water and the added stress of eviction if they can't pay their rent. Many immigrants come here and live in horendous conditions. I've seen many of these immigrants and their lives. Many immigrants make the comment "gee, life here is a lot harder than in my country" especially if they simple came for economic reasons, not political ones. Many of them actually leave, and go back to their home country.

Poverty is relative. It's all relative to the society in which you live, and your climate. Fur coats are considered a luxury item in the west, but if you're an Eskimo, it's a necesity (and it's made of seal, not mink). Electricity is considered a luxury in parts of Africa, but in the west where you rely on electricity for everything from food preparation to heating your home, it's a necessity. Do you see what I'm saying?

I see it and I've heard it before. And in response to what you said, people who claim absolute and relative poverty are similar, are the ones who've never experienced absolute poverty. At least there are opportunities and ways to get out of the cycle in America, and a legal system to protect you. In third world countries it's a completely different mindset...and that's why you get dozens of Africans packed onto a small leaky vessel trying to get into Europe.

Measure poverty in relative terms and you'll end up in a situation where poverty will always exist, as you're continually seeking to redefine it.

And televisions are a luxury item. Just because they're cheap, doesn't mean it isn't a luxury. I consider chocolate biscuits a luxury too.

[ChotooMotoo]

Originally Posted by Aryan_

I see it and I've heard it before. And in response to what you said, people who claim absolute and relative poverty are similar, are the ones who've never experienced absolute poverty. At least there are opportunities and ways to get out of the cycle in America, and a legal system to protect you. In third world countries it's a completely different mindset...and that's why you get dozens of Africans packed onto a small leaky vessel trying to get into Europe.

Measure poverty in relative terms and you'll end up in a situation where poverty will always exist, as you're continually seeking to redefine it.

And televisions are a luxury item. Just because they're cheap, doesn't mean it isn't a luxury. I consider chocolate biscuits a luxury too.

How do you define absolute poverty then? Maybe in Brittian there is a system for the poor to pull themselves up, but there really isn't in America. You see one or two isolated examples of people getting ahead, but they are few and far between, and often involve aquiring tremendous amounts of debt. Education is considered the best way to "get ahead" but if you are really poor, even with scholarships and everything, you could end up taking out $50,000 in student loans just for your B.S. degree. That means that unless you get an incredibly well paying job you really won't be that much better off than a very industrious construction worker with no student loans. In the USA we have this attitude of blame the poor. If someone had kids out of wedlock, they deserve to suffer, and so do their kids. It's a vicious cycle. The USA has a really feudalistic 3rd world mindset when it comes to social welfare.

Just look at the kinds of immigrants that come to the USA: mostly educated white colar type people, unless they are illegal. Many illegal immigrants are transient. They come to the USA to work in low paying jobs, live in squalor to save money, and plan to leave the USA after a few years. We don't get many refugees compared to Europe, because we don't have good system to help them get on their feet. I was watching a show about Somali refugees, their lives suck in the USA. The refugee guy was saying that sure, in the USA you have some more luxuries, but it's not worth the stress. He said that if it wasn't for the danger, he would go back to Somalia where life was easier, even though they don't have so many things. I know plenty of Mexican farmworkers who feel the same way. You can't compare the USA to Europe or Brittain.

[Ugur]

Sister ChotooMotoo, come on, accept the truth. We live in a just world in which everyone gets what he deserves and thus no one has the right to complain. Not only a poor guy but also the child who lost all his family in a bombardment in Afghanistan has gotten what he deserves. Thinking otherwise is questioning the just world in which Allah created us and is the ultimate disrespect to Allah Himself. Haven't you been lectured enough by moralizing brothers and sisters on your responsibility not to complain about your or other people's misfortunes?

[ChotooMotoo]

Originally Posted by Ugur

Sister ChotooMotoo, come on, accept the truth. We live in a just world in which everyone gets what he deserves and thus no one has the right to complain. Not only a poor guy but also the child who lost all his family in a bombardment in Afghanistan has gotten what he deserves. Thinking otherwise is questioning the just world in which Allah created us and is the ultimate disrespect to Allah Himself. Haven't you been lectured enough by moralizing brothers and sisters on your responsibility not to complain about your or other people's misfortunes?

I don't recall where I complained about my upbringing. I learned a lot of very useful things from my youth, which things I couldn't have learned any other way.

[Ugur]

Originally Posted by ChotooMotoo

I don't recall where I complained about my upbringing. I learned a lot of very useful things from my youth, which things I couldn't have learned any other way.

The sheer act of mentioning people's sufferings due to poverty or illness is complaining.