[afrakabob]

there are some real bigoted idiots in this sociology course i'm taking.
today we were discussing poverty and welfare. the guy who sits behind me (and considers himself an expert on everything) raised his hand and commented:

"I think it's interesting when you look at how small the percentage is of African-American and Latino people living in the United States, and then compare it to the large portion of them who are living in poverty. To me, that indicates that they have a lack of motivation or drive to succeed. I have a friend who started working at McDonalds and then became the manager. Any of his co-workers could have done the same, but they didn't want to so most of them just ended up in jail!
I have read what Bill Cosby has to say on this matter, and he seems to feel the same way. I've done some personal research myself, and in fact, I've even been to Africa. When you look at how Africans in Africa act, it's a completely different story. They have a completely different work ethic."

....complete idiocy. i always thought that people are supposed to know better than to publicly admit to holding racist views.
congratulations, my friend, for:
1) committing the gross error of lumping all black people in the world together, and assuming that disparate groups of people with completely distinct histories should all act the same.

2) failing to regard the fact that this nation has a not-so-distant record of actively trying to keep African-Americans in their "place"-- slavery, sharecropping, literacy tests, segregation (legal as recently as the 1960's) . subjugation and oppression don't disappear overnight; they leave a lasting legacy. why else do people talk endlessly about the Holocaust (which ended in the 1940's)? somehow, whenever one brings up slavery, people seem to simply roll their eyes and say it's time for African-Americans to move out of the past. no one's trying to claim that the legacy of slavery exempts African-Americans from personal responsibility, but it's definitely an important factor to keep in mind when making sweeping judgments about why they supposedly "fail to succeed".

3) ignoring the fact that there are limited work opportunities for people in the inner city, especially if they have less access to education (whether they dropped out to support their family, were unable to afford higher education, or whatever reason). that's not to mention the stigmas associated with certain manners of dress, having a language barrier, or even speaking with a particular accent-- all frequently perceived as signs of low intellect or class in a corporate setting.

4) taking one anomalous success story as representative of the norm-- assuming that minimum wage jobs actually provide vast opportunities for upward mobility, if only people have the will to move up in the ranks. nevermind that even veteran employees of such jobs make little more than their starting wage. and nevermind that there's an endless supply of people seeking such jobs (especially in areas where few alternative, legitimate jobs exist), so employees are essentially disposable.

5) taking an actor (who happens to be known and criticized for his blame-the-victim opinions), and equating him with some kind of well-read authority on all black people (since he's African-American, of COURSE he must be an expert)

anyway. i was fuming by this point, but i made sure to tell off this classmate and point out that he was equating occupational prestige with character qualities. i asked
him how someone who works at a low-prestige job (or sometimes multiple such jobs) with long hours and meager benefits can be considered lazy if his hard-earned salary is still insufficient for bringing him out of poverty, as is often the case.
if anything, i see that as the highest standard of work ethic. much more admirable than that of any high-powered corporate executive with 8-hour workdays and paid overtime.

any thoughts?

[jinnzaman]

Walks into thread and shouts EUROCENTRISM and leaves.

[iTz_NoT_Me_iTzZu]

you should have said that while punching him. it would've been more effective

[afrakabob]

Originally Posted by iTz_NoT_Me_iTzZu

you should have said that while punching him. it would've been more effective

dude, i am the biggest pacifist in the world.
but if you knew the kinds of horrible non-pacifist scenarios that were going through my mind while he was talking....


hi FBI. i love freedom. i also think invading iraq was a great idea. and i love the marines.

[dreamdeferred]

You pretty much nailed it sister. I hear this sort of garbage all the time.

It's all too easy for some folks to completely overlook the social/institutional effects of slavery and the ensuing Jim Crow era. White privilege is also underplayed significantly. Nothing new here. Often these ideas also rely heavily on an exaggerated attention paid to "racial characteristics" (ignoring that race is largely a social construct).

I could go on for hours about this topic but I'm too tired right now.

Here's a great article by Tim Wise that dovetails nicely with your observations.

Tim Wise- (Proto)Typical White Denial
(I tried linking to this article from Wise's own website but it doesn't seem to work.....this will have to do)

[thejellymill]

Originally Posted by afrakabob

I've even been to Africa. When you look at how Africans in Africa act, it's a completely different story. They have a completely different work ethic."
[/i]

errr.. maybe because Africans in AFRICA are from a completely different country and culture and unlike black people in America, were not brought to this country in chains for centuries, robbed of their freedom, basic rights, religions and morality and discriminated against in every way possible? Yea it's probably provable that a larger number of African Americans are below poverty line than not... and the crime rate is higher among minorities, especially black people... but how is that any indicator of anything except that this is the result of centuries of the offenses I listed above, and not the fault of an entire minority?! AAAAHHH!!!!!

This guy's real smart. . I hate getting stuck in a class with people like him

By the way you made good points and I agree with everything.

[shadha]

The guy does have a valid point, but he did generalized too much.


shadha-

[MuslimZ]

Ah this is what we call the Bill Cosby method of attacking poverty. Michael Eric Dyson smashes these idjuts. Is Bill Cosby Right or Is the Black Middle Class Out of Touch? : NPR

[dreamdeferred]

Originally Posted by MuslimZ

Ah this is what we call the Bill Cosby method of attacking poverty. Michael Eric Dyson smashes these idjuts. Is Bill Cosby Right or Is the Black Middle Class Out of Touch? : NPR

Michael Eric Dyson =

Thanks for the link bro.

[m_ali_qazi]

Originally Posted by afrakabob

there are some real bigoted idiots in this sociology course i'm taking.

they prefer the term, republicans

[dreamdeferred]

Originally Posted by shadha

The guy does have a valid point, but he did generalized too much.


shadha-

Out of curiosity.......what part of what he said seems valid from your pov?

[afrakabob]

Originally Posted by m_ali_qazi

they prefer the term, republicans

yeah, i originally had referred to him as a Republican, and then decided to be a little more descriptive

Originally Posted by dreamdeferred

Out of curiosity.......what part of what he said seems valid from your pov?

i'm curious as well.

[thejellymill]

Originally Posted by m_ali_qazi

they prefer the term, republicans

oh wow, so true. I heard an interview with a man who praised Rush Limbaugh the other day on the radio and the interviewer asked "why are you so quick to defend this man who so often makes outrageous cases on false premises? etc etc" and the guy answered, defending Limbaugh as a conservative who has a right to his opinion and he started bashing liberals. What an idiot.

[MossadConspiracy]

salam

from the way you describe it, it seems like the kid had a typical elitist attitude towards less fortunate people, but I wasnt there so who knows.

Anyway, I dont think its debatable that there are serious problems in inner city black communities. These include high rates of prison incarceration, unemployment rates that are usually several multiples of the national rate, a larger percentage of fatherless families than any other segment of the population (which may or may not be a problem), higher incidence and prevalence of HIV, diabetes, high blood pressure, heart disease, and practically every other disease under the sun along with their risk factors, etc...

Racism may be the root cause of these problems, but pointing them out isnt racist or incorrect or insensitive in itself. Alot of black people look at these trends negatively, actually its one of the broad themes of contemporary black culture. The notion that black culture has experienced a downfall, from a previous era when communities were more tightly knit and values were more conservative. Again, whether this ideal ever really existed is up for debate, but Bill Cosby isnt unique in mentioning it. Actually, he represents a common view among blacks which has been stated by a variety of black leaders and major figures like Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson, TD Jakes, Barack Obama, Oprah Winfrey, etc. Bill Cosby is a very dedicated black nationalist, and always was

[Nabisco007]

This thread reminded me of Rev. Wright...