[afrakabob]

Originally Posted by sally

PS afra dont you go to a fairly liberal uni? but then i guess it doesnt really matter..

yes, but that's in MA, where gay marriage is legal . at the moment i'm taking summer courses at a community college back home in VA. a lot of my classmates are older adults, so maybe that's why they lean more toward the right.

Originally Posted by ShotgunMessiah

The vast majority of the US population, despite what you apparently believe, is colorblind.

i wish that were the case.

[ShotgunMessiah]

Originally Posted by afrakabob

i wish that were the case.

You don't have to wish, that's how it is. I won't deny that racism exists and never have.
But by and large, an employer won't be like "Wow! This guy's resume blows me away! I'd better bring him in for an interview, before someone else snatches him up!" then a black guy answers the call and the employer says "Thank you for your time, the position has been filled."

[dreamdeferred]

Originally Posted by shadha

I'm almost 100% sure that no one is going to like what I have to say but hell that's never stopped me from saying my peace before, so enjoy.

I really am tired of this whole woe is me victimization that many in the black community dwell in. They dwell in the past and use the past as an excuse for the present and future. There is definitely a lack of motivation, self-discipline and self-accountability in the black community. Anytime something goes wrong for them, they want to blame the white man of today and of 200+ years ago. Enough is enough. We see the statistics of crime, HIV/AIDs, broken homes, prison population- enough of the excuses already. Yes, there is a lot going against them [socially] but that should not be used as an excuse. Yes there is still racism but again don't use that as a life-long excuse as to why you're unsuccessful. There are kids who come over to this country with jack crap and don't know a word of English yet they excel and succeed. Why do you think that is? Motivation. You can't tell me that black Americans, inner city and else where, have absolutely no chance at making something positive of themselves because I know far too many that have. They have so much opportunity in this country than others around the world- I mean for God's Sake the library, which is filled with thousands of books, is free! They can apply to tons of scholarships. They are given an education. Many states, if not all?, offer state funded Health Care.

Ahhhhhhhhh.........where to begin?

Who said Black Americans (inner-city or otherwise) can't make anything of themselves? I don't remember saying that. The fundamental problem with your perspective is that you gloss over the complexities of what we're discussing with this feel-good "pull yourselves up by the bootstraps" rhetoric. No one is arguing that African Americans can't succeed or that we should absolve ourselves of personal responsibility. That's silly and it doesn't resonate with me personally as an African American man who defies many of the stereotypes you harped against in your post.....of course we should emphasize personal responsibility, work ethic etc with kids in the family/community......this is common sense. The problem with Cosby's comments (and yours from what I can tell) is that his diatribe was fundamentally aimed at "lower economic people" (lol...his words) and failed to adequately account for the very real structural problems in this country. Honestly sister....read Dyson's article that MuslimZ posted.

The statistics you mentioned speak to the problems/issues faced by the black community but say nothing at all about the systemic and structural problems that produce them. It's simply not an "excuse" or "woe-is-me victimization" to be cognizant that slavery and the Jim Crow era continue to have an impact on the socio-economic lives of African Americans. This isn't living in the past.......it's explaining the present (not excusing it).

I have a kind of a unique view on this as I did community youth work with at-risk kids some years ago. When you see the challenges these kids are faced with up close it really puts the screws to any notions of "opportunity is abundant....if only you reach for it" type notions you might have. Some of the brightest, sweetest kids you've ever met.....some of whom wear the clothing you lambasted....are victims of a system that sometimes works against them aggressively. Of course we should encourage people to excel and overcome these obstacles but putting blinders on won't change the fact that they exist.

Afrakabob mentioned in the thread post about the stigma of dress- well who wants to hire some hood rat? Under no circumstance is that dress attire considered professional- so why are they sabotaging themselves by stubbornly sticking to it? Then they want to complain that they are being 'unfairly judged'. Please. It's like an emo kid complaining that he can't get a job on Wall Street. No **** sherlock. I have a real problem that many can afford hundred dollar shoes but they can't afford a decent shirt and dress pants? They can afford to deck out their cars lovely but they can't afford a library card? They can afford all that food to be overweight but they can't afford a decent shirt and dress pants? Many unfortunately have their priorities all twisted.

Can't comment on this because I'm not sure what you're talking about. Who says these kids don't have library cards? Are they wearing these clothes to interviews? Can you judge a person adequately (in terms of character) based on their attire? Will a black man still face disproportionate racial profiling by police regardless of attire (The answer to that one is YES lol)?

Afrakabob also mentioned about random here and there success stories. They are not few and far. Many bust their asses during the day and go to community college classes at night. Some have two jobs and go to school. That's what we call being motivated and having self-discipline. Even if it takes them twice as long to get the degree- they are putting the effort into it.

Ok I guess......

Bill Cosby is not the first black celebrity to speak out against such behavior.

You're absolutely right that he isn't the first to raise some of these concerns........regardless there's a reason he's being singled out. Have you actually read his comments? For anyone interested.....check it out
Bill Cosby Speech Transcript

He definitely raises some valid points (his screed against absentee fathers for example)....but he misrepresents a whole slew of complicated issues.

It was not right for the guy to make a sweeping generalization against ALL Black Americans but surely the points he made are valid and can easily be applied to many black Americans. This is not blaming the victim, this is keeping it real.


shadha-

Haha....we'll agree to disagree....I think it's more an example of "When Keeping it Real Goes Wrong"

[sally]

you guys are so lame for arguing about poverty. i mean, wake up and smell the bacon...everyone knows there's really no such thing as poverty. it's just not real. it's a conspiracy the US government made up to scare all of us.

[dreamdeferred]

Originally Posted by ShotgunMessiah

And I'm saying it's not, or at very least shouldn't be

Race is only relevant as long as people allow it to be. The vast majority of the US population, despite what you apparently believe, is colorblind. This doesn't mean that we are blind to the individual, though.

This is patently false brother. It may accurately represent your perspective but it doesn't line up at all with the typical African American experience. Race is very much an issue.......this can be shown quite easily statistically.

As an example, two people apply for a job at a retail store. One person shows up in a t-shirt and slacks. The other shows up in a suit and tie. One has darker skin, the other has light skin. What do you think the employer is going to look at first, the skin color or the outfit? Well, in this case, the employer dismissed the light skinned individual (me) and brought the guy in the suit back for the interview. I felt that it wasn't a serious position and showed up in my regular clothes. The other guy obviously took the job much more seriously than I, and ended up getting the job. Was it because he was black? No. It's because he looked much more professional than I, and he earned it.

Kudos to you for acknowledging that the other guy deserved the position based on his attire.....but this has nothing to do with employer attitudes towards race. The thing about systemic racism is that it doesn't require that one be aware of or even committed to a racist ideology (racist hiring practices etc).

If you're born into poverty, you may not be presented with the same opportunities as everyone else. But most of this country has public schools which anyone can go to, and if you apply yourself and do well in can get you into a good college where you can start a good career. If you don't apply yourself and fail, you have nobody to blame but yourself. Not your parents, not your teachers, and certainly not "whitey."

Lol @ "whitey".......replace "whitey" with "systemic racism" and/or "structural bias against the poor" and I'd still disagree.

This is not about personal responsibility folks. Certainly in some cases this may be the culprit but this isn't what we're talking about.

As an example of just one facet of this incredibly complex subject so many of you would like to oversimplify....

Are all public schools equal? In terms of quality of education resources etc.etc. etc. If you're willing to say yes....provide evidence in terms of stats.

Originally Posted by sally

you guys are so lame for arguing about poverty. i mean, wake up and smell the bacon...everyone knows there's really no such thing as poverty. it's just not real. it's a conspiracy the US government made up to scare all of us.

I know right? Poverty has no systemic consequences at all!!!

[jinnzaman]

I think the underlying flaw in the opposing argument is that they don't realize that economic disparities are inherently ingrained within the capitalist social framework. There will always be a class of poor people since its a prerequisite for cheap labor that is necessary to liberate the upper classes to pursue other work. Division of labor exists in every country and the lower classes usually have distinct racial or religious features.

Another flaw that people have is that they assume that everyone has equal access to the job market, which is simply not true. Nor do people have equal access to good public education or equal access to higher education. Lets not get into health care, filial stability, fascist police officers (who are often racist).

There is a lot of evidence that institutionalized racism exists even until this day. For example, the following study finds a huge disparity in jailings for drug offenses based on race. 97% of the county jails in the US have large racial disparities for the same drug offenses. African Americans are ten times more likely to be jailed for drug offenses than whites.
http://www.justicepolicy.org/images/...rtex_AC-DP.pdf

What this illustrates is that racism does exists and it is institutionalized. If African Americans comprise over 50% of the entire US prison population (which is the largest prison population in the world), think of all of the African Americans that are separated from their community. Think of how that affects family structure when the most able bodied members of its labor force are incarcerated. The lack of an adequate labor force forces youth to divert their energies into low-paying jobs and not going to institutions of higher learning or getting higher paid jobs.

[dreamdeferred]

Originally Posted by jinnzaman

I think the underlying flaw in the opposing argument is that they don't realize that economic disparities are inherently ingrained within the capitalist social framework. There will always be a class of poor people since its a prerequisite for cheap labor that is necessary to liberate the upper classes to pursue other work. Division of labor exists in every country and the lower classes usually have distinct racial or religious features.

Another flaw that people have is that they assume that everyone has equal access to the job market, which is simply not true. Nor do people have equal access to good public education or equal access to higher education. Lets not get into health care, filial stability, fascist police officers (who are often racist).

There is a lot of evidence that institutionalized racism exists even until this day. For example, the following study finds a huge disparity in jailings for drug offenses based on race. 97% of the county jails in the US have large racial disparities for the same drug offenses. African Americans are ten times more likely to be jailed for drug offenses than whites.
http://www.justicepolicy.org/images/...rtex_AC-DP.pdf

What this illustrates is that racism does exists and it is institutionalized. If African Americans comprise over 50% of the entire US prison population (which is the largest prison population in the world), think of all of the African Americans that are separated from their community. Think of how that affects family structure when the most able bodied members of its labor force are incarcerated. The lack of an adequate labor force forces youth to divert their energies into low-paying jobs and not going to institutions of higher learning or getting higher paid jobs.

Good points Jinnz,

Honestly....I didn't even want to get into the disparities in the Justice system alone let alone a serious conversation about economics. Incarceration for crack offenses vs cocaine offenses is a good intro to the racial-economic dynamics of justice in this country. Unfortunately it's just the tip of the iceberg.

[jinnzaman]

Originally Posted by dreamdeferred

Good points Jinnz,

Honestly....I didn't even want to get into the disparities in the Justice system alone let alone a serious conversation about economics. Incarceration for crack offenses vs cocaine offenses is a good intro to the racial-economic dynamics of justice in this country. Unfortunately it's just the tip of the iceberg.

Exactly, people don't want to talk about the system as a whole but want to break it down into separate categories as if crime, institutional racism, education, and the job market are unrelated and have nothing to do with one another.

We are interconnected with our environment and history.

[afrakabob]

Originally Posted by jinnzaman

Exactly, people don't want to talk about the system as a whole but want to break it down into separate categories as if crime, institutional racism, education, and the job market are unrelated and have nothing to do with one another.

i love this subject.

[sally]

you THINK you see no food on the kids spoon but really he already ate it. he's not poor.





now this guy right here...he's feeding from his eyes..that's right. if you cant see the food, it's probbaly because you're not a very good muslim.

[dreamdeferred]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ @ the Matrix.

Originally Posted by jinnzaman

Exactly, people don't want to talk about the system as a whole but want to break it down into separate categories as if crime, institutional racism, education, and the job market are unrelated and have nothing to do with one another.

We are interconnected with our environment and history.

Agreed.......a holistic approach to this subject is the only way to make sense of it.

Originally Posted by afrakabob

i love this subject.

Word.

[sixpakistan]

Originally Posted by ShotgunMessiah

You don't have to wish, that's how it is. I won't deny that racism exists and never have.
But by and large, an employer won't be like "Wow! This guy's resume blows me away! I'd better bring him in for an interview, before someone else snatches him up!" then a black guy answers the call and the employer says "Thank you for your time, the position has been filled."

I'd say you're right. Modern instances of racism in the US mostly center around people blaming a person's ethnicity for a flaw they see within that person specifically. i.e., they'll hire someone of a different race without a problem, but if they screw up, people will automatically think "stupid wop/******/spic/kike/sand ******/raghead/chink/what-have-you." Which is really more just unthinking prejudice than anything. Racism in the sense of people consciously ("consciously" is a key distinction) viewing themselves as superior or others as inferior/hating others solely due to their race is pretty much dead for MOST of American society.

Religious background is a different matter entirely..

[Good_ol_JR]

This is patently false brother. It may accurately represent your perspective but it doesn't line up at all with the typical African American experience.

Where do you get the authority to speak of the typical AA experience, can you provide a personal example of prejudice you have encountered via being African American?
Again we need details, what specifically is it that makes it 2x as hard for a black person to get a job/do well in school. Especially when you factor in affirmative action and the need-based scholarships so many receive.

From my personal experience I can't help but think my life would be quite a bit easier if I were black, but that's just my 2 cents. I mean American culture these days practically idolizes blacks when it comes to sports, music, movies, pop culture, etc. Most people view them as extremely gifted people due to their immense natural talent in all of the above, in particular sports.

Most people would kill to have the natural talent that Allah SWT has blessed black people with, and I'm not joking you know in Texas how many White and Hisp