[dreamdeferred]

Originally Posted by MossadConspiracy

salam

from the way you describe it, it seems like the kid had a typical elitist attitude towards less fortunate people, but I wasnt there so who knows.

Anyway, I dont think its debatable that there are serious problems in inner city black communities. These include high rates of prison incarceration, unemployment rates that are usually several multiples of the national rate, a larger percentage of fatherless families than any other segment of the population (which may or may not be a problem), higher incidence and prevalence of HIV, diabetes, high blood pressure, heart disease, and practically every other disease under the sun along with their risk factors, etc...

Racism may be the root cause of these problems, but pointing them out isnt racist or incorrect or insensitive in itself. Alot of black people look at these trends negatively, actually its one of the broad themes of contemporary black culture. The notion that black culture has experienced a downfall, from a previous era when communities were more tightly knit and values were more conservative. Again, whether this ideal ever really existed is up for debate, but Bill Cosby isnt unique in mentioning it. Actually, he represents a common view among blacks which has been stated by a variety of black leaders and major figures like Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson, TD Jakes, Barack Obama, Oprah Winfrey, etc. Bill Cosby is a very dedicated black nationalist, and always was

There is insightful criticism and then there is elitist and unproductive criticism. Bill Cosby's critique was firmly in the latter category. Michael Eric Dyson (who's article has been posted above) explodes Bill's argument sufficiently so I won't get into that at all. Regardless I still have a lot of respect for the man.

The real problem is when people fail to account for the very real systemic issues that underlie all the problems you've highlighted above. Are these problems related to some racial/cultural deficiency......or does it go substantially deeper? As far as I'm concerned it's clear that when race and poverty intersect the outcome is is bound to be tragic.

[TrentReznor858]

LIBERALS CAUSED 9/11!!!!! THAT INDIAN REPUBLICAN SAYS SO!!!!

Poor guy, I hope one day he hears them snickering behind his back.

[shadha]

dreamdeferred: Out of curiosity.......what part of what he said seems valid from your pov?
afrakabob: i'm curious as well.

I'm almost 100% sure that no one is going to like what I have to say but hell that's never stopped me from saying my peace before, so enjoy.

I really am tired of this whole woe is me victimization that many in the black community dwell in. They dwell in the past and use the past as an excuse for the present and future. There is definitely a lack of motivation, self-discipline and self-accountability in the black community. Anytime something goes wrong for them, they want to blame the white man of today and of 200+ years ago. Enough is enough. We see the statistics of crime, HIV/AIDs, broken homes, prison population- enough of the excuses already. Yes, there is a lot going against them [socially] but that should not be used as an excuse. Yes there is still racism but again don't use that as a life-long excuse as to why you're unsuccessful. There are kids who come over to this country with jack crap and don't know a word of English yet they excel and succeed. Why do you think that is? Motivation. You can't tell me that black Americans, inner city and else where, have absolutely no chance at making something positive of themselves because I know far too many that have. They have so much opportunity in this country than others around the world- I mean for God's Sake the library, which is filled with thousands of books, is free! They can apply to tons of scholarships. They are given an education. Many states, if not all?, offer state funded Health Care.

Afrakabob mentioned in the thread post about the stigma of dress- well who wants to hire some hood rat? Under no circumstance is that dress attire considered professional- so why are they sabotaging themselves by stubbornly sticking to it? Then they want to complain that they are being 'unfairly judged'. Please. It's like an emo kid complaining that he can't get a job on Wall Street. No **** sherlock. I have a real problem that many can afford hundred dollar shoes but they can't afford a decent shirt and dress pants? They can afford to deck out their cars lovely but they can't afford a library card? They can afford all that food to be overweight but they can't afford a decent shirt and dress pants? Many unfortunately have their priorities all twisted.

Afrakabob also mentioned about random here and there success stories. They are not few and far. Many bust their asses during the day and go to community college classes at night. Some have two jobs and go to school. That's what we call being motivated and having self-discipline. Even if it takes them twice as long to get the degree- they are putting the effort into it.

Bill Cosby is not the first black celebrity to speak out against such behavior.

It was not right for the guy to make a sweeping generalization against ALL Black Americans but surely the points he made are valid and can easily be applied to many black Americans. This is not blaming the victim, this is keeping it real.


shadha-

[Good_ol_JR]

Originally Posted by shadha

dreamdeferred: Out of curiosity.......what part of what he said seems valid from your pov?
afrakabob: i'm curious as well.

I'm almost 100% sure that no one is going to like what I have to say but hell that's never stopped me from saying my peace before, so enjoy.

I really am tired of this whole woe is me victimization that many in the black community dwell in. They dwell in the past and use the past as an excuse for the present and future. There is definitely a lack of motivation, self-discipline and self-accountability in the black community. Anytime something goes wrong for them, they want to blame the white man of today and of 200+ years ago. Enough is enough. We see the statistics of crime, HIV/AIDs, broken homes, prison population- enough of the excuses already. Yes, there is a lot going against them [socially] but that should not be used as an excuse. Yes there is still racism but again don't use that as a life-long excuse as to why you're unsuccessful. There are kids who come over to this country with jack crap and don't know a word of English yet they excel and succeed. Why do you think that is? Motivation. You can't tell me that black Americans, inner city and else where, have absolutely no chance at making something positive of themselves because I know far too many that have. They have so much opportunity in this country than others around the world- I mean for God's Sake the library, which is filled with thousands of books, is free! They can apply to tons of scholarships. They are given an education. Many states, if not all?, offer state funded Health Care.

Afrakabob mentioned in the thread post about the stigma of dress- well who wants to hire some hood rat? Under no circumstance is that dress attire considered professional- so why are they sabotaging themselves by stubbornly sticking to it? Then they want to complain that they are being 'unfairly judged'. Please. It's like an emo kid complaining that he can't get a job on Wall Street. No **** sherlock. I have a real problem that many can afford hundred dollar shoes but they can't afford a decent shirt and dress pants? They can afford to deck out their cars lovely but they can't afford a library card? They can afford all that food to be overweight but they can't afford a decent shirt and dress pants? Many unfortunately have their priorities all twisted.

Afrakabob also mentioned about random here and there success stories. They are not few and far. Many bust their asses during the day and go to community college classes at night. Some have two jobs and go to school. That's what we call being motivated and having self-discipline. Even if it takes them twice as long to get the degree- they are putting the effort into it.

Bill Cosby is not the first black celebrity to speak out against such behavior.

It was not right for the guy to make a sweeping generalization against ALL Black Americans but surely the points he made are valid and can easily be applied to many black Americans. This is not blaming the victim, this is keeping it real.


shadha-

All this slavery and Jim Crow talk is getting way too cliche and typical around here regarding topics about Afro-Amer. You can smell it coming from a mile away. Not to sound rude but unless you're black or have lived in a heavily populated black area, chances are you don't have enough knowledge to be talking about this topic. The second you hear Jim Crow and Slavery you know that person is not in the above category. If you were you would be talking about the present not the past.

It's almost unhealthy how often black issues are discussed by mostly immigrants on this forum.

And why are Latinos being mentioned, how many unemployed Hispanics do you guys know? I doubt it's very many; having a job is very important in our culture whether it's through working at McDonalds, being a plummer, or working in an office.We're still fairly recent immigrants and many of us are moving on up in the corporate world,

It's just that the more recent immigrants could care less about paying through your nose to go to college to work some desk job in an office. Many of them take pride in working blue-collar job cause it gives them a sense of really earning their money with their hands as opposed to hugging onto the testes of some rich middle aged executive in order to get a promotion.

How many Hispanics do you see lying on their butts and claiming welfare; no matter how meager almost all of us have jobs. That's more than can be said for several British Pakis and French Arabs, many of whom have no problem claiming welfare benefits because they're too arrogant to work a blue-collar job with their hands for fear it will ruin their marriage prospects

[dreamdeferred]

Originally Posted by Good_ol_JR

The second you hear Jim Crow and Slavery you know that person is not in the above category.

I'm black.........I wish it was so easy to leave slavery and Jim Crow behind.... unfortunately the institutional effects of these policies reverberate today.....obviously there's plenty of opportunity out there for the enterprising individual, but systemic issues exist whether or not you choose to acknowledge it (this isn't directed specifically to you.....it applies to anyone who feels that harping on about these things is a "cop-out" or "excuse" of some kind)

Honestly, I'd love to spend time addressing the points you Shadha brought up but I have to be out of the house shortly after fajr so I've got to get to bed.

Insha'Allah I will be back to bring y'all some light tommorow

[thejellymill]

Not all of us in here are "immigrants." Shadha and ittznotme are at least part black and I think dreamdeferred is full black. I don't know about the others but I at least have hung around a lot of black people in my lifetime and read enough about the issues to have some idea of what I'm talking about.

Yes I agree there are lazy people in every group. I went to school with girls who were black and didn't think much of having 2 kids by 12th grade...they would bring the babies to school for 'show and tell' while the dad was off making more kids. My mom works in the public aid department of the government and deals with so many black people who are on public aid with 2 or 3 kids, trying to get their money out of their "baby daddy." Drug use, prostitution, crime, teenage pregnancy...all seem to be more prevalent in the black community. But why? Because a large majority of black people are not even at the "middle class" level" and a large number never complete, or even start, higher education.

Over the centuries the treatment the black community have been subjected to in America has taken its toll and produced this sad pattern that many young black people have fallen into. It is a result of slavery and oppression, directly or indirectly, and whether you want to admit it or not.

[jinnzaman]

The argument, restated, is that the particular historical experience of a particular group of people in relation to a colonizing power, may explain their role in the world today.

Would anyone blame the unemployment in the Palestinian territories and refugee camps solely on the Palestinians or would we also look at the external factors pertaining to Israeli aggression?

The proper analysis is not only looking at how the African American community is doing, but comparing it to the African diaspora as a whole, and that begins by looking at the effect of slavery and colonialism on Africa. Some economists have theorized that if it wasn't for Europen interference in Africa, the continent, as a whole, would be much more closer to the rest of the world.
Economist's View: "The Historical Origins of Africa’s Underdevelopment"

I have another journal that scrutinizes Africa region by region and concludes that those areas that were subjected to slavery and colonialism happen to be the most underdeveloped regions within Africa (and the world) as a whole.

Now, if the effects of slavery and colonialism on Africa can be empirically established, its not that much of a leap to conclude that Africans living in America, subjected to Jim Crow laws that only ended in the 1960s, may have economic, social, and political disadvantages.

[thejellymill]

^^ jinnzaman: must spread rep

[afrakabob]

Originally Posted by Nabisco007

This thread reminded me of Rev. Wright...

...no comment

Originally Posted by shadha

I really am tired of this whole woe is me victimization that many in the black community dwell in. They dwell in the past and use the past as an excuse for the present and future. There is definitely a lack of motivation, self-discipline and self-accountability in the black community.

i agree with many of your points. like i had said originally, "No one's trying to claim that the legacy of slavery exempts African-Americans from personal responsibility."

Originally Posted by shadha

They have so much opportunity in this country than others around the world- I mean for God's Sake the library, which is filled with thousands of books, is free! They can apply to tons of scholarships. They are given an education. Many bust their asses during the day and go to community college classes at night. Some have two jobs and go to school. That's what we call being motivated and having self-discipline. Even if it takes them twice as long to get the degree- they are putting the effort into it.

once again, it's not necessarily all that easy. i hate to revert to personal anecdotes after criticizing that guy in my class for doing the same, but just a few hours ago i was talking to one of my closest friends, a first-generation Salvadorian American. it's been a few years since he dropped out of high school to help his mom support the family, and today i asked him why he still hasn't signed up for classes at the community college like he's been planning to do since he got his GED. he almost broke down when he was telling me how he doesn't have enough money left between buying food for his family, paying a bill to keep the electricity from being cancelled, and sending money home to his grandmother in El Salvador. to make matters worse, since his mom doesn't have papers, the community college requires him to pay out-of-state tuition, which costs 3x as much.
i can't tell you how brilliant this guy is. he dropped out of 10th grade, but his vocabulary is better than mine. it's a complete shame.

Originally Posted by shadha

You can't tell me that black Americans, inner city and else where, have absolutely no chance at making something positive of themselves because I know far too many that have.

i wasn't trying to imply that they have absolutely no chance, i'm just saying it's a lot more difficult to break those barriers when the cards are stacked against you. i'm in the middle of a book about employees of a branch of fast food restaurant in Harlem, which discusses the alienation a young person sometimes faces when she alone out of her peers decides to enter the working world. obviously she's making the right choice for herself, but how might it feel to know that for all her work in the legal economy, she is still probably less able to make ends meet than her friends working in the underground economy?
the same friend was telling me that aside from how crushing it is to be unable to go back to school, it's especially frustrating to continue going to work without any change in his life, while all his neighbors are making $1500 a day selling drugs.

Originally Posted by shadha

They can afford all that food to be overweight

....go the grocery store and take a look at how expensive fresh/healthy/organic food is, when compared to fast food or canned processed garbage. i don't think it's as much a matter of spending too much money on food as it is a matter of making do with what's affordable and easy to prepare.

i'll respond to more later, iA

[ShotgunMessiah]

/sigh

The "white man" isn't trying to hold anyone down. The age of whitey being the enemy are past. Obviously there is still racism in the world today, but all you need is to kick your own ass to overcome whatever obstacles that are in the way. Barriers? Everyone has barriers. You can either change it or cry about it.

Obstacles are everywhere, for everyone. My mom spent a very long time in the public education system, and she could tell you stories of children from all walks of life, every color and every background and any combination of them. The only thing that will keep you from having to deal with those obstacles is how much money your family has, not your skin color. Not in this day and age.

By the way, as far as it being a "black people" problem, I always say that until we're not taught to see "differences" in skin color, racism will always be there. Even statements like " I have a dream that in the future. little black boys and little white boys would play together" perpetuate racism, by the way, because you're still acknowledging a difference between them, and human nature tells us that if there's a difference then one has to be better

[Timbit]

Wow.

at Afra's classmate, Bill Cosby, Shadha, JR, ShotgunMessiah.
Kudos to Afra, MuslimZ, Jinnz and dreamdeferred.

The appropriate reps will be coming your way soon.

[ShotgunMessiah]

Originally Posted by Timbit

Wow.

at Afra's classmate, Bill Cosby, Shadha, JR, ShotgunMessiah.
Kudos to Afra, MuslimZ, Jinnz and dreamdeferred.

The appropriate reps will be coming your way soon.

So you think people should be handed the best life without working for it? Because what I'm saying, and all I'm saying, is instead of whining about being black when that's not relevant, get up and make something out of yourself.

I've seen some of my family who is exactly as Bill Cosby described. I have had it no better than them in life, and I'd even say I've had it a little worse than them, but I've managed to already make more out of myself than three generations of them. Do you think it's because my skin color is lighter than theirs?

EDIT: I'd like to add, though, that as far as the OP is concerned... It's kind of a joke to lump in the Latino population in with the "blame the victim" mentality. The Latino population has a downright notorious reputation for taking the jobs nobody else wants, working for them at an insulting pay, having several members of the family working even while going to school, teaching an invaluable and enviable work ethic to their younger generations, furthering their own and their children's educations, and moving up in the world. They take the crap that is thrown at them like champions and turn it right back around to become valuable and respected members of the community. They do exactly what Bill Cosby says what should be done.

I don't think it's racist to say "You can do better than what you are, so do it." It's the same thing my mother told me growing up.

[shadha]

Preach it Shotgun.

afrakabob: once again, it's not necessarily all that easy. i hate to revert to personal anecdotes after criticizing that guy in my class for doing the same, but just a few hours ago i was talking to one of my closest friends, a first-generation Salvadorian American. it's been a few years since he dropped out of high school to help his mom support the family, and today i asked him why he still hasn't signed up for classes at the community college like he's been planning to do since he got his GED. he almost broke down when he was telling me how he doesn't have enough money left between buying food for his family, paying a bill to keep the electricity from being cancelled, and sending money home to his grandmother in El Salvador. to make matters worse, since his mom doesn't have papers, the community college requires him to pay out-of-state tuition, which costs 3x as much. i can't tell you how brilliant this guy is. he dropped out of 10th grade, but his vocabulary is better than mine. it's a complete shame.

You don't even want me to start on the no papers issue.

Anyway, my entire post was in reference to Black Americans, so you can not use a Hispanic to combat what I said.

Oh and not for nothing but since he's Hispanic, there are loads of scholarships he can get. He could put his exceptional vocabulary to good use and write up some essays and financially breeze his way through school.

Side note: I'm a bit confused as to what his moms status has to do with *his* state status? As long as he has proof of residency in that state, why then would they make him pay out of state? What does his mom have to do with anything? I don't get it. Maybe there's a puzzle piece missing?

afraka: i wasn't trying to imply that they have absolutely no chance, i'm just saying it's a lot more difficult to break those barriers when the cards are stacked against you.

But it's not IMPOSSIBLE. And that's what others here are trying to say. It's not impossible so they need to stop using excuse after excuse to justify why they are where they are. It is hard ass work to go to school, pay the bills, and work but many upon many upon many of people have done it and have become successful. It is ridicul