[PhDGirl]

Originally Posted by jinnzaman

This might be a very stupid question, so please don't make fun of me, but how do the husbands know their wife's hymen is broken? As a matter of adab, aren't you not supposed to look "down there" and have conjugal relations under the covers, etc?

Also, keep in mind, the core problem is not the misrepresentation of women for losing their chastity, but the stigma that attaches them due to the jahil practice of making the wife bleed and showing it off - which also contravenes adab as well. One isn't supposed to boast of one's marital relations in public.

Not to be too graphic, but you can consider the blood as a proxy for breaking the hymen. But, not everyone bleeds and not everyone has a hymen, so sometimes women are accused of things they didn't do because of ignorance.

[ShahRukh]

Originally Posted by jinnzaman

This might be a very stupid question, so please don't make fun of me, but how do the husbands know their wife's hymen is broken? As a matter of adab, aren't you not supposed to look "down there" and have conjugal relations under the covers, etc?

Also, keep in mind, the core problem is not the misrepresentation of women for losing their chastity, but the stigma that attaches them due to the jahil practice of making the wife bleed and showing it off - which also contravenes adab as well. One isn't supposed to boast of one's marital relations in public.

Well the blood part as PhDGirl said. Yes, its a myth to bleed and they're not always true, but they've been there for centuries for a reason.

My teacher once mentioned during a lecture that you will naturally know if your wife had been saving her virginity for you. Allah makes the moment full of blessings for the virgins.

[qudsia]

...so how does one gauge a mans virginity? 'trust'..?

[thejellymill]

Originally Posted by zeyneddine

i dont know... statistically, about half of women reported bleeding their first time... based on studies in the west. and western women are generally more active. plus the body part must be there to serve some purpose?

Does the foreskin on men serve a purpose? Nobody has ever really figured it out because men who are circumcised have less problems than men who haven't because you have to clean very carefully under it and not doing so can lead to infection etc. In the same way that the foreskin is pretty much useless, almost all women are born with a hymen (which serves no obvious purpose) but it wears away over time through exercise and other things because not all hymens are the same. It's not like a seal on a bottle or something...it's just a piece of skin and in some cases it's very thin and even has holes in it (it can look as flimsy as a spiderweb).

So some women, even though they are virgins will not bleed because perhaps they were a) not born with a hymen or b) had a weaker, thinner one that wore away with exercise or just through daily activities like running or physical labor. Women who do bleed obviously had tougher hymens or less active lives. Should we stigmatize and shame men who aren't circumcised? It's the same thing...the hymen being in tact or not does not matter and really it doesn't really serve a purpose (same concept as the male foreskin or the umbilical cord that falls off after birth).

Originally Posted by ShahRukh

Well the blood part as PhDGirl said. Yes, its a myth to bleed and they're not always true, but they've been there for centuries for a reason.

It's been there for centuries for a reason so that women can be subjugated and accused. See what I wrote above.

This hymen thing is a jahil practice and this hymen reconstructive surgery is helping a lot of virgin women who would otherwise be shamed, ridiculed, beaten or even killed just because a little piece of skin didn't hold up. I'm not saying it's right for non-virgins to lie and get it done but for the virgins it's a very good thing.

My teacher once mentioned during a lecture that you will naturally know if your wife had been saving her virginity for you. Allah makes the moment full of blessings for the virgins.

That's ridiculous. The way to "naturally know" is if she has told you and been sincere. What about you? How will she know you've been "saving yourself"?

[thejellymill]

Originally Posted by qudsia

...so how does one gauge a mans virginity? 'trust'..?

Yes that's exactly what I'd like to know too.

[jinnzaman]

Originally Posted by qudsia

...so how does one gauge a mans virginity? 'trust'..?

Aunty gossip.

[ShahRukh]

Originally Posted by qudsia

...so how does one gauge a mans virginity? 'trust'..?

Wrong.


As always.


A man's virginity is gauged by the amount of wives he has (had)...

[ShotgunMessiah]

Originally Posted by qudsia

...so how does one gauge a mans virginity? 'trust'..?

Skill?

[Jamroll]

Originally Posted by qudsia

...so how does one gauge a mans virginity? 'trust'..?

Check his hymen.

[ShahRukh]

Originally Posted by thejellymill

[color="RoyalBlue"]



It's been there for centuries for a reason so that women can be subjugated and accused. See what I wrote above.

This hymen thing is a jahil practice and this hymen reconstructive surgery is helping a lot of virgin women who would otherwise be shamed, ridiculed, beaten or even killed just because a little piece of skin didn't hold up. I'm not saying it's right for non-virgins to lie and get it done but for the virgins it's a very good thing.

Muslim men do not accuse their women of being unchaste just to subjugate and oppress them. A person with no sense of gheera would do that.

And you're wrong about virgins women having reconstructive surgeries to save themselves from shame and possible backlash.

How do they know their hymen is broken?

Mostly arab women from elite backgrounds who mess around in their younger years go for reconstructive surgeries.

That's ridiculous. The way to "naturally know" is if she has told you and been sincere. What about you? How will she know you've been "saving yourself"?

No sane muslim would ever admit that she comitted some major sins..

It's an opinion of some pious people, may have no religious backings though.

If the man is religiously and practically smart enough, he'll find out for sure.

Also Innocence is another important factor in determining whether the potential has messed up in the past or not. Ppl with shady pasts tend to lack haya and innocence majorly and are more rebelious than people with clean records.

p.s. Questioning someones virginity on a public forum is a very obnoxious to say the least..regardless of any gender.

There's no need to take this conversation to a personal level. Keep it simple and professional.

[ChotooMotoo]

A very serious fall can break it, and you would notice because it does bleed. In the opposite direction, some some women have really thick hymens which don't break when they aught to, leading to serious discomfort for the couple (especially the woman).

Originally Posted by ShahRukh

p.s. Questioning someones virginity on a public forum is a very obnoxious to say the least..regardless of any gender.

What do you think about this case then?

Fake virgin ruling sparks storm in French parliament
by Rory Mulholland
Tue Jun 3, 1:02 PM ET
PARIS (AFP) - French Justice Minister Rachida Dati warned Tuesday that a marriage annulment granted because the bride was not a virgin should not be used to stigmatise France's five-million-strong Muslim population.

She made the comment in a stormy parliamentary session in which opposition Socialists booed her for several minutes as she argued the annulment should go before an appeal court but that the ruling was nevertheless legally sound.

"Let's avoid caricature... let's avoid the stigmatisation of certain of our compatriots," she said, referring to the country's Muslim population, the largest in Europe.

Critics across the political spectrum -- including other ministers in President Nicolas Sarkozy's government -- have slammed the annulment ruling as a victory for fundamentalists and a blow to the emancipation of women.

The annulment was granted in April by a court in the northern city of Lille but news of it reached the French media only last Thursday.

The husband, an engineer in his thirties who has not been named, requested it because he realised his new bride, also a Muslim, was not a virgin on their wedding night in July 2006.

The woman later admitted to him she had had pre-marital sex.

The court granted the request after ruling that the man's belief in the woman's virginity was a "determining factor" in his decision to marry her.

The ruling did not mention the couple's religion.

Dati emphasised that point in Tuesday's parliamentary session, noting that the annulment was accepted by both the man and the woman, a student nurse some 10 years younger than her former husband and like him of north African origin.

"Tomorrow, we will have other cases, and perhaps without the agreement of one of the two partners," Dati told parliament.

Therefore she said the case needed to be reexamined in an appeal court because "there must be no ambiguity in the application of the law," which must not "allow the procedure of annulment to be used on the sole grounds of non-virginity."

Dati, who herself comes from a Muslim family and had her own arranged marriage annulled, had on Friday supported the ruling, saying it was a "way to protect people."

But on Monday, after a weekend of heated media debate in this staunchly secular nation, she made a U-turn and ordered an appeal.

Under French law, a marriage can be annulled if there has been "an error about the person or the essential qualities of the person."

It does not state what the essential qualities are.

But marriages have been annulled for reasons such as impotence, if a partner does not reveal a previous marriage or a child, or if the wife hides the fact that she had been a prostitute.

Prime Minister Francois Fillon said he would take the Lille case to France's high court of appeal if necessary to prevent creating a legal precedent for annulling a marriage on grounds of virginity.

Urban affairs secretary Fadela Amara, a practising Muslim and women's rights activist, has called the annulment "a fatwa against women's emancipation."

Women's group Femmes Solidaires said the ruling was all the more scandalous because there were "more and more young women who resort to surgery to reconstitute their hymens to be a virgin at their marriage."

[jinnzaman]

The concept of concealment as a grounds for annulment is a specifically Catholic tradition, if I'm not mistaken, and is recognized in many Western jurisdictions.

So its not really a big deal, legally speaking. Its only because Muslims are involved that this has become an issue because of the fear of honor killings and what not.

[ChotooMotoo]

Originally Posted by jinnzaman

The concept of concealment as a grounds for annulment is a specifically Catholic tradition, if I'm not mistaken, and is recognized in many Western jurisdictions.

So its not really a big deal, legally speaking. Its only because Muslims are involved that this has become an issue because of the fear of honor killings and what not.

That's understood, but should virginity really be the deciding factor in a marriage? Should a woman be denied the opportunity for marriage based on past sins from which she has sincerely repented? If a man had committed the same sins, and repented, nobody need ever know but the man and Allah (swt), whereas for the woman in this case, her past sins are public knowledge. That's the problem I have with it.

[ShahRukh]

Originally Posted by ChotooMotoo

A very serious fall can break it, and you would notice because it does bleed. In the opposite direction, some some women have really thick hymens which don't break when they aught to, leading to serious discomfort for the couple (especially the woman).



What do you think about this case then?

In terms of annulment and its legality, i think its fair to breakup a relationship if trust is lost b/w a couple due to any legit reason.


People who lie about their past before going into a marriage are the Suck with a capital S. thats what I think..