[MoonStar]

This is disturbing, I didn't know it was practiced in Indonesia. Sick.

Sad Slideshow: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/20/ma...l?ref=magazine


Female circumcisers and their attendants waiting in an elementary-school classroom, where they do their work.

A Cutting Tradition
By SARA CORBETT

A Cutting Tradition

When a girl is taken — usually by her mother — to a free circumcision event held each spring in Bandung, Indonesia, she is handed over to a small group of women who, swiftly and yet with apparent affection, cut off a small piece of her genitals. Sponsored by the Assalaam Foundation, an Islamic educational and social-services organization, circumcisions take place in a prayer center or an emptied-out elementary-school classroom where desks are pushed together and covered with sheets and a pillow to serve as makeshift beds. The procedure takes several minutes. There is little blood involved. Afterward, the girl’s genital area is swabbed with the antiseptic Betadine. She is then helped back into her underwear and returned to a waiting area, where she’s given a small, celebratory gift — some fruit or a donated piece of clothing — and offered a cup of milk for refreshment. She has now joined a quiet majority in Indonesia, where, according to a 2003 study by the Population Council, an international research group, 96 percent of families surveyed reported that their daughters had undergone some form of circumcision by the time they reached 14.

These photos were taken in April 2006, at the foundation’s annual mass circumcision, which is free and open to the public and

held during the lunar month marking the birth of the prophet Muhammad. The Assalaam Foundation runs several schools and a mosque in Bandung, Indonesia’s third-largest city and the capital of West Java. The photographer Stephanie Sinclair was taken to the circumcision event by a reproductive-health observer from Jakarta and allowed to spend several hours there. Over the course of that Sunday morning, more than 200 girls were circumcised, many of them appearing to be under the age of 5. Meanwhile, in a nearby building, more than 100 boys underwent a traditional circumcision as well.

According to Lukman Hakim, the foundation’s chairman of social services, there are three “benefits” to circumcising girls.

“One, it will stabilize her libido,” he said through an interpreter. “Two, it will make a woman look more beautiful in the eyes of her husband. And three, it will balance her psychology.”

Female genital cutting — commonly identified among international human rights groups as female genital mutilation — has been outlawed in 15 African countries. Many industrialized countries also have similar laws. Both France and the U.S. have prosecuted immigrant residents for performing female circumcisions.

In Indonesia, home to the world’s largest Muslim population, a debate over whether to ban female circumcision is in its early stages. The Ministry of Health has issued a decree forbidding medical personnel to practice it, but the decree which has yet to be backed by legislation does not affect traditional circumcisers and birth attendants, who are thought to do most female circumcisions. Many agree that a full ban is unlikely without strong support from the country’s religious leaders. According to the Population Council study, many Indonesians view circumcision for boys and girls as a religious duty.

Female circumcision in Indonesia is reported to be less extreme than the kind practiced in other parts of the globe — Africa, particularly. Worldwide, female genital cutting affects up to 140 million women and girls in varying degrees of severity, according to estimates from the World Health Organization. The most common form of female genital cutting, representing about 80 percent of cases around the world, includes the excision of the clitoris and the labia minora. A more extreme version of the practice, known as Pharaonic circumcision or infibulation, accounts for 15 percent of cases globally and involves the removal of all external genitalia and a stitching up of the vaginal opening.

Studies have shown that in some parts of Indonesia, female circumcision is more ritualistic — a rite of passage meant to purify the genitals and bestow gender identity on a female child — with a practitioner rubbing turmeric on the genitals or pricking the clitoris once with a needle to draw a symbolic drop of blood. In other instances, the procedure is more invasive, involving what WHO classifies as “Type I” female genital mutilation, defined as excision of the clitoral hood, called the prepuce, with or without incision of the clitoris itself. The Population Council’s 2003 study said that 82 percent of Indonesian mothers who witnessed their daughters’ circumcision reported that it involved “cutting.” The women most often identified the clitoris as the affected body part. The amount of flesh removed, if any, was alternately described by circumcisers as being the size of a quarter-grain of rice, a guava seed, a bean, the tip of a leaf, the head of a needle.

At the Assalaam Foundation, traditional circumcisers say they learn the practice from other women during several years of apprenticing. Siti Rukasitta, who has been a circumciser at the foundation for 20 years, said through an interpreter that they use a small pair of sterilized scissors to cut a piece of the clitoral prepuce about the size of a nail clipping. Population Council observers who visited the event before the 2003 study, however, reported that they also witnessed some cases of circumcisers cutting the clitoris itself.

Any distinction between injuring the clitoris or the clitoral hood is irrelevant, says Laura Guarenti, an obstetrician and WHO’s medical officer for child and maternal health in Jakarta. “The fact is there is absolutely no medical value in circumcising girls,” she says. “It is 100 percent the wrong thing to be doing.” The circumcision of boys, she adds, has demonstrated health benefits, namely reduced risk of infection and some protection against H.I.V.

Nonetheless, as Western awareness of female genital cutting has grown, anthropologists, policy makers and health officials have warned against blindly judging those who practice it, saying that progress is best made by working with local leaders and opinion-makers to gradually shift the public discussion of female circumcision from what it’s believed to bestow upon a girl toward what it takes away. “These mothers believe they are doing something good for their children,” Guarenti, a native of Italy, told me. “For our culture that is not easily understandable. To judge them harshly is to isolate them. You cannot make change that way.”

[Timbit]

But MoonStar, you're judging them harshly and that's only going to isolate them.

[MoonStar]

it looks like it's common there so maybe a little international condemnation wouldn't hurt.

I wonder how long its been practiced there though, I thought it was mainly done in Africa/Middle East. Desis don't practice it, how'd it get to Indonesia?

I guess at the local level you'd need a huge campaign involving imams denouncing it, fathers stepping in and preventing it, celebrity ads against it, medical workers educating people, the Indonesian Oprah if there is one doing a show about its harms, and later laws against it fining and jailing those who do it.

It sounds like they don't cut as much off as in other countries but still, it's going to affect a girls sex life. and her husbands. I've heard that in Egypt some men take hashish b/c they think it makes them more virile, when really the problem is their circumcised wives.

9 month old who was just circumcised:

[Kona_Silat]

Originally Posted by MoonStar

...
Female circumcision in Indonesia is reported to be less extreme than the kind practiced in other parts of the globe — Africa, particularly. Worldwide, female genital cutting affects up to 140 million women and girls in varying degrees of severity, according to estimates from the World Health Organization. The most common form of female genital cutting, representing about 80 percent of cases around the world, includes the excision of the clitoris and the labia minora. A more extreme version of the practice, known as Pharaonic circumcision or infibulation, accounts for 15 percent of cases globally and involves the removal of all external genitalia and a stitching up of the vaginal opening.

Studies have shown that in some parts of Indonesia, female circumcision is more ritualistic — a rite of passage meant to purify the genitals and bestow gender identity on a female child — with a practitioner rubbing turmeric on the genitals or pricking the clitoris once with a needle to draw a symbolic drop of blood. In other instances, the procedure is more invasive, involving what WHO classifies as “Type I” female genital mutilation, defined as excision of the clitoral hood, called the prepuce, with or without incision of the clitoris itself. The Population Council’s 2003 study said that 82 percent of Indonesian mothers who witnessed their daughters’ circumcision reported that it involved “cutting.” The women most often identified the clitoris as the affected body part. The amount of flesh removed, if any, was alternately described by circumcisers as being the size of a quarter-grain of rice, a guava seed, a bean, the tip of a leaf, the head of a needle...

It is not as wide-spread in Indonesia as it is some parts of the world. There are a minority of folks who practice the extreme version of it (total removal of it) but they are village folk. As far as I know, the proper version mentioned in the hadith of female circumsicion involves cutting the area around the clitoris to expose the clitoris more during sexual intercourse (gives more pleasure to the woman apparently). For the most part, most Indonesian women are not cirucumsized.

[Timbit]

Originally Posted by MoonStar

it looks like it's common there so maybe a little international condemnation wouldn't hurt.

I wonder how long its been practiced there though, I thought it was mainly done in Africa/Middle East. Desis don't practice it, how'd it get to Indonesia?

I guess at the local level you'd need a huge campaign involving imams denouncing it, fathers stepping in and preventing it, celebrity ads against it, medical workers educating people, the Indonesian Oprah if there is one doing a show about its harms, and later laws against it fining and jailing those who do it.

It sounds like they don't cut as much off as in other countries but still, it's going to affect a girls sex life. and her husbands. I've heard that in Egypt some men take hashish b/c they think it makes them more virile, when really the problem is their circumcised wives.

Yeah, definitely... I was just being sarcastic with my comment.

A huge campaign is needed to educate people about the harms of it. Because there's still people like Kona who think it's done for the woman's pleasure. And support from the scholars is definitely needed. Female circumcision is not a religious duty and is harmful more often than not, so why do it?

Kona, cutting the clitoral hood exposes the clitoris, sure, but that doesn't mean that brings more pleasure during sex.

And wow, that kid has big eyes.

[Kona_Silat]

****snip****

[heba]

Originally Posted by Kona_Silat

*snip*

um. TMI.

[nooni]

Originally Posted by MoonStar

9 month old who was just circumcised:

shes soooooooooooooo cute

[shadha]

Kona_Silat: *snip*

Dude. Wow.

Anyway, I can never finish reading such articles. Too sickening. I want my sons circumcised though [is that hypocritical of me?] but I do not. do not. do not. not. not. not. not. want to be present when it happens.


shadha-

[Kona_Silat]

Originally Posted by Timbit

...

Kona, cutting the clitoral hood exposes the clitoris, sure, but that doesn't mean that brings more pleasure during sex.

..:

I am going to assume you never had sex education (either from parents or school). I could post something but it might border on explicit. But the clitoris is one primary ways where women reach an orgasm which is why a lot of women say that during missionary sex position they are able to reach an orgasm better. The reason being there is a lot of contact in that position which stimulates the woman.

[Timbit]

Originally Posted by Kona_Silat

I am going to assume you never had sex education (either from parents or school). I could post something but it might border on explicit. But the clitoris is one primary ways where women reach an orgasm which is why a lot of women say that during missionary sex position they are able to reach an orgasm better. The reason being there is a lot of contact in that position which stimulates the woman.

Wow. I probably have way more knowledge on the subject than you ever will, just by virtue of my having a female body.

Yes, stimulating the clitoris is important, sure (I neve denied that) but the clitoral hood is there for a reason. It protects the clitoris from overstimulation which can cause discomfort at the least but can even be painful.

[Kona_Silat]

Originally Posted by Timbit

Wow. I probably have way more knowledge on the subject than you ever will, just by virtue of my having a female body.

Yes, stimulating the clitoris is important, sure (I neve denied that) but the clitoral hood is there for a reason. It protects the clitoris from overstimulation which can cause discomfort at the least but can even be painful.

As far as I know the clitoris is an "under-developed penis". There are plenty of men who wear underwear or tight clothing. In other words they do not have hood to protect their privates. So pressure or contact is not enough to get aroused. If I am not mistaken, women are emotional lovers, so they need both the emotional and the physical to be aroused.

[sumiyia]

Originally Posted by nooni

shes soooooooooooooo cute

ditttooooo

[Timbit]

Originally Posted by Kona_Silat

As far as I know the clitoris is an "under-developed penis". There are plenty of men who wear underwear or tight clothing. In other words they do not have hood to protect their privates. So pressure or contact is not enough to get aroused. If I am not mistaken, women are emotional lovers, so they need both the emotional and the physical to be aroused.

What the hell?

I dunno how you're making the connection here. All I'm saying is the clitoral hood has a purpose and it's to protect the clitoris from overstimulation (as well as to provide pleasure in itself when stimulated).