[Variable]

Originally Posted by Timbit

Too bad Kona isn't.
But then again, he's just a troll.

I just meant how female anatomy works


I thought there were ahadeeth that supported it though, because I remembered being surprised when I read it.

[Timbit]

Originally Posted by Variable

I just meant how female anatomy works


I thought there were ahadeeth that supported it though, because I remembered being surprised when I read it.

Yeah, me too. But I've read one hadith about it and I don't think it even says that female circumcision is recommended. Maybe somebody else can shed some light on that.

[Bruinrab]

Originally Posted by Kona_Silat

But you have just stated a valid reason for removal of the hood. (re: bold faced statement)

How do you know if a particular nine month old will prefer it when she is an adult?

[Variable]

Originally Posted by Timbit

Yeah, me too. But I've read one hadith about it and I don't think it even says that female circumcision is recommended. Maybe somebody else can shed some light on that.

I gave it a search... I think the fact of the matter is, the whole issue is vague. It's vague in such a way that nothing will likely change one way or the other. Those who do it seem to have enough religious backing to keep doing it without sounding contradictory.

Here's an online scholar:

However, the most moderate opinion and the most likely one to be correct is in favor of practicing circumcision in the moderate Islamic way indicated in some of the Prophet's hadiths – even though such hadiths are not confirmed to be authentic. It is reported that the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said to a midwife: "Reduce the size of the clitoris but do not exceed the limit, for that is better for her health and is preferred by husbands". The hadith indicates that circumcision is better for a woman's health and it enhances her conjugal relation with her husband. It’s noteworthy that the Prophet's saying "do not exceed the limit" means do not totally remove the clitoris.

Islamic Ruling on Female Circumcision - IslamonLine.net - Ask The Scholar

Abu Sahlieh further cited Muhammad as saying, "Circumcision is a sunna (tradition) for the men and makruma (honorable deed) for the women."[39]"

It also says that according to the Shafi'i school it's wajib. In the others it seems to be kind of up in the air, and actually only in Shia Islam as far as I can tell, is it explicitly forbidden.

Female genital cutting - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There'd have to be a lot of source checking on that. But it seems to me that there are plenty of people who believe it's a divinely sanctioned process, and that's probably not going to change for a long long time.



But anyway, as I was reading through some of these sites, a few points came up that made me wonder - why are we supposed to cut parts of ourselves off anyway? Like why did God give us armpit hair and foreskins if we are just supposed to cut it/them off?

this is what one lady said:

The Egyptian Dr Nawal El-Saadawi writes:

"If religion comes from God, how can it order man to cut off an organ created by Him as long as that organ is not diseased or deformed? God does not create the organs of the body haphazardly without a plan. It is not possible that He should have created the clitoris in woman’s body only in order that it be cut off at an early stage in life."

As a woman and a victim of circumcision herself, she was referring to the female genitals, but the point is equally applicable to the male foreskin – the part of the penis removed by circumcision."


I think she raises a good question.

[Kona_Silat]

Originally Posted by Bruinrab

How do you know if a particular nine month old will prefer it when she is an adult?

Well, I didn't ask to be cirucmsized.


Variable, from what I know the hadiths for FGC are supposedly weak, or has a weak chain.

[Timbit]

Originally Posted by Variable

I gave it a search... I think the fact of the matter is, the whole issue is vague. It's vague in such a way that nothing will likely change one way or the other. Those who do it seem to have enough religious backing to keep doing it without sounding contradictory.

Here's an online scholar:

However, the most moderate opinion and the most likely one to be correct is in favor of practicing circumcision in the moderate Islamic way indicated in some of the Prophet's hadiths – even though such hadiths are not confirmed to be authentic. It is reported that the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said to a midwife: "Reduce the size of the clitoris but do not exceed the limit, for that is better for her health and is preferred by husbands". The hadith indicates that circumcision is better for a woman's health and it enhances her conjugal relation with her husband. It’s noteworthy that the Prophet's saying "do not exceed the limit" means do not totally remove the clitoris.

Islamic Ruling on Female Circumcision - IslamonLine.net - Ask The Scholar

Abu Sahlieh further cited Muhammad as saying, "Circumcision is a sunna (tradition) for the men and makruma (honorable deed) for the women."[39]"

It also says that according to the Shafi'i school it's wajib. In the others it seems to be kind of up in the air, and actually only in Shia Islam as far as I can tell, is it explicitly forbidden.

Female genital cutting - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There'd have to be a lot of source checking on that. But it seems to me that there are plenty of people who believe it's a divinely sanctioned process, and that's probably not going to change for a long long time.

Hmmm.
Anybody else have anything to say about this? I'll look it up later InshaAllah.

Originally Posted by Variable

But anyway, as I was reading through some of these sites, a few points came up that made me wonder - why are we supposed to cut parts of ourselves off anyway? Like why did God give us armpit hair and foreskins if we are just supposed to cut it/them off?

this is what one lady said:

The Egyptian Dr Nawal El-Saadawi writes:

"If religion comes from God, how can it order man to cut off an organ created by Him as long as that organ is not diseased or deformed? God does not create the organs of the body haphazardly without a plan. It is not possible that He should have created the clitoris in woman’s body only in order that it be cut off at an early stage in life."

As a woman and a victim of circumcision herself, she was referring to the female genitals, but the point is equally applicable to the male foreskin – the part of the penis removed by circumcision."


I think she raises a good question.

Allahu Alim. It's not a question that I struggle with, heh, but we'll ask Allah when we see Him.

[Variable]

Originally Posted by Kona_Silat

Variable, from what I know the hadiths for FGC are supposedly weak, or has a weak chain.

Yeh I know, but those who follow it say that 'weak' doesn't mean 'invalid'. At very least they say they can't be told it's un-Islamic to do so.

Those that do say it's totally wrong point to a scholar who mentions that there's some error with the plurals, that in Arabic even though they used the female plural, they meant male exclusively... I'm not going to pretend to have understood his argument, but it's another one out there. Other than that, it's 'anti-mutilation' texts against tattooing and scarification, that sort of thing.

Those pro of course will counter that this is another thing entirely, more inline with male circumcision and re-state their weak (but not invalid as they see it) hadith.

So It's just going to keep going on and on. A whole madhab says it's recommended (I don't know if that translates into a lot of people or not). Nothing is so clear on it that it favours one side of the argument or another.

Originally Posted by Timbit

Allahu Alim. It's not a question that I struggle with, heh, but we'll ask Allah when we see Him.

I'm gonna start another thread.

[Pushpa]

Originally Posted by Variable

However, the most moderate opinion and the most likely one to be correct is in favor of practicing circumcision in the moderate Islamic way indicated in some of the Prophet's hadiths – even though such hadiths are not confirmed to be authentic. It is reported that the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said to a midwife: "Reduce the size of the clitoris but do not exceed the limit, for that is better for her health and is preferred by husbands". The hadith indicates that circumcision is better for a woman's health and it enhances her conjugal relation with her husband. It’s noteworthy that the Prophet's saying "do not exceed the limit" means do not totally remove the clitoris.

The only thing this hadith exposes is the subjective nature of language. I don't know Arabic, but judging from this translation, how do we know that where it says 'that is better for her health' etc etc.. that the word 'that' does not actually refer to 'not exceeding the limit'. In which case the hadith would indicate that not being excessive when cutting is better for her health (makes more sense) and is better for her husband (also makes more sense.)

The only thing I can think of is that it was an already existing cultural custom that was not forbidden in Islam, but restrictions were placed on the extent to which it should be carried out.

Also, the only people who have said that cutting enhances conjugal relations for the woman so far have been men so - how would they know?
And for women, whether they have had the procedure or not, how would they be able to judge the comparative effects in the bedroom, since both groups will have only ever experienced one side of the coin?

The way I see it there are 3 possibilities: either it's
a) an Islamic requirement,
b) a cultural custom that is allowed but not required in Islam, or
c) contrary to Islamic practices.

There is too much diffference of opinion for it to be unequivocally (a), and no evidence to suggest that (c) is true. So (b) seems to me the most logical explanation.

[Variable]

I don't think any of the scholars I came across said it was necessary, they just said at most it was 'wajib' - (I'm not exactly sure what that means in any deep sense of the word, but I think it means it's good).

Other than that, they just say that nobody can tell them that it's un-Islamic, and they're free to do it. There's nothing specifically mentioned against it, and the Prophet knew about it, and they see that as a green light.

[Variable]

Originally Posted by Pushpa

Also, the only people who have said that cutting enhances conjugal relations for the woman so far have been men so - how would they know?
And for women, whether they have had the procedure or not, how would they be able to judge the comparative effects in the bedroom, since both groups will have only ever experienced one side of the coin?

Oh yeh, I think too, there are a lot of women who are adamant that their daughters have it done. They too promote it by bringing up various 'positive' points about it as well.

I think the only way you'd ever get reliable data on the difference, is if the procedure was done on someone who was already sexually active, and repeated until enough of a picture was formed. I don't think that's going to happen.

[ameen]

salam,

Both male and female genitals are part of the natural and perfect creation of Allah, which are incomparable to bodily hair or nails, which are designed to be removed on a regular basis for obvious hygiene-purposes. Unlike hair or nails, the private parts are innervated, are very sensitive to touch, and do not grow excessively. The Qur'an condemns those who tamper with this perfect nature created by Allah as a Satanic act mislead by false desires. The Satan said:

"'I will take a portion of Your servants, and I will lead them astray, and I will influence in them false desires, and I will entice them to cut the ears of cattle, and I will entice them to change the creation of Allah.' Whoever takes the Satan as a friend rather than Allah has indeed earned a great loss." - (4:118-119)

[Jamroll]

I don't know if this has already been mentioned in the thread, but as I understand it, the female circumcision which is permissible under Islam, is where a very tiny amount is cut from the prepuce, not the actual clitoris. As far as I know, any cutting of the actual clitoris is not permitted, as this would hinder a woman's natural pleasure during intercourse.

[Variable]

Originally Posted by Jamroll

I don't know if this has already been mentioned in the thread, but as I understand it, the female circumcision which is permissible under Islam, is where a very tiny amount is cut from the prepuce, not the actual clitoris. As far as I know, any cutting of the actual clitoris is not permitted, as this would hinder a woman's natural pleasure during intercourse.

Yeh, it's type II according to WHO I think? That's what's being discussed.

[Jamroll]

Originally Posted by Variable

Yeh, it's type II according to WHO I think? That's what's being discussed.

Sorry, what's type II?