Makka, luxury hotel, luxury mall.

[niqabi]

Originally Posted by IbnMardhiyah;21164Yeah, that's right.


Furthermore, the KSA gov't. has a huge responsibility to use their wealth and the land wisely, which is in fact the wealth and land of the whole Ummah. In simple economic terms, it makes sense to build high-capacity [65,000 people, hello?

accomodations closer to the masjid than it would be to build smaller, separate units spread around.

Do the poor beggars, including elderly and children, not have more of a right over the "money of the Ummah" than the luxurious comfort of the Hajji's? Despite some of the beggars working as conartists and exploiting children by chopping off their limbs as a means of earning money, I still believe that the "beggars" that surround you make it difficult to even concentrate on the physical and emotional aspect of the trip. They should work at freeing the main roads and gates of Mecca of the beggars, that would be more beneficial to the Hajji's compared to a 5 star hotel.

I wouldn't mind a longer commute to the House of Allah, during a trip where each hardship is rewarded immensely, if I could surpass the hundreds who are thirsty and hungry and begging for some spare change who stay on my mind even through my circles around the Kabba. Because while I make salah in this blessed place, I can't seem to erase the face of the legless little boy who was selling six cotton towels for only 3 riyals.

And for those who are sick, disabled, unable to withstand a arduous commute, let them be given priority to already standing closeby Hotels. It sounds totally impossible for the government to coordinate, but as young adults, we should step back and realize that we are blessed with health and that maybe by booking a farther hotel, someone more deserving could use that closeby hotel room.

We also need to step out of the mind frame that our Hajj trip should be as luxurious as possible. We aren't there to enjoy the amenities or to go on a vacation. My solution to this is learning our rich Islamic history and the significance of the trip as well as seerah and the hardships that the Messenger saw and his companions ra went through each time they performed Hajj. Cuz once we do that, staying at Hilton will no longer be our top priority.

[SaidAbdullahofDarfur]

Originally Posted by IbnMardhiyah

1) Everyone here who's blaming the Saudi government for every crime under the sun - please grow up. If you can't bring any evidence for your claims, then you've exposed the intellectual weakness of your argument. Yeah its real easy to sit back and blame the established authority, but it doesn't get your point across and only tells me that you're standing on real thin ice.

For One, People are outraged at this, this thing, the Saudi government is building.
Another thing people are saying different things.
People are claiming different things.
So,
What are we arguing here?
Morality?
Or the actually benefits of this mall?

You can call out the intellectual weakness of an argument that doesn't exist.

2) That assertion of capitalism is totally distorted, simply because people who don't know better like to blame capitalism as that big, bad, over-arching evil trait of the West, when in fact - its just business as usual.

People see things differently I guess.
You see business as usual, I see the seeds of imperialism, which may I add was a fruit of capitalism.

So I guess I do see it as an 'over-arching evil trait of the west' or more specifically, the western influenced.

So that we don't have any disputes over what the definition of capitalism really is, I'll use established authorities available here, in which its clearly defined that capitalism is:

"...an economic system in which investment in and
ownership of the means of production, distribution,
and exchange of wealth is made and maintained
chiefly by private individuals or corporations, esp.
as contrasted to cooperatively or state-owned
means of wealth."

In plain and simple terms, capitalism is the opposite of socialism. I think everyone can see that socialism just doesn't work. Its a failure. Capitalism on the other hand is the essence of business - an individual or a company produces goods or services to meet a demand and they profit from it.

May I argue that, Socialism is the opposite of Capitalism.
Socialism came as a reformer to the broken system of Capitalism.

Socialism? A failure?
Ha, quite the contrary.

Capitalism is the Failure.
Look at the state of the people in Capitalist countries.
Look at the united states.

Look at its ghettos, look at its rich.

The Wealth Distribution

In the United States, wealth is highly concentrated in a relatively few hands. As of 2001, the top 1% of households (the upper class) owned 33.4% of all privately held wealth, and the next 19% (the managerial, professional, and small business stratum) had 51%, which means that just 20% of the people owned a remarkable 84%, leaving only 16% of the wealth for the bottom 80% (wage and salary workers). In terms of financial wealth, the top 1% of households had an even greater share: 39.7%. Table 1 and Figure 1 present further details drawn from the careful work of economist Edward N. Wolff at New York University (2004).

Who Rules America: Wealth, Income, and Power

When 80% of a population own only 8.8% of the wealth of said country, You truly don't think a system like this is broken?

All the Sahabaa were capitalists. They ran their own business using their own money, they built their supply and logistical lines, distribution networks, marketing, and so on. They all looked for ways to reduce their production costs and increase profit. That's the same thing that happens in capitalism and trade. Islam itself encourages free trade and has nothing against capitalism.

Now the complications of labeling.
When you label something, you presume this adjective as being absolute.
Yet to be absolute it needs definition.

If you want to say the Salaf were capitalist then define it.

I'm pretty sure they didn't own large companies, have a few elite, and monopolize industry.

Have you forgotten the Banks?
They make their money off interest?
Are banks not an intricate part of capitalism?
Is interest not Haram?
[/quote]

The Islamic government itself is the one responsible for distributing services and wealth to the poor and needy, and the poor and needy exists in every society. They are not a byproduct of capitalism.

You've got to be kidding me...
Capitalism has no place in Islam.

IN the modern world, yes you have many individuals or corporations who have what appear to be obscene amounts of wealth because they're successful at what they do. All businesses seek to lower their costs. Big deal.

Have what appear to be...?
Dude, 1% of the population owns about 1/3 of the wealth in the states!
Thats Messed up.

Taking advantage of working people isn't being good at what you do.
Well If what your aiming for is keeping the majority of the populating improvised then I guess they'd be good at what they do....

What they do, Is conquer, By owning the means of production, they are enslaving the population. They Own what people need to survive.

By seeking to lower their costs they are aiming for a surplus, not for living comfortably.
By seeking a surplus, they are taking from the people who work for them.

This is stealing.

Stealing is Haram.

Any societal illnesses that exists today, and the increasing gap between the rich and poor, are not a result of capitalism.

Capitalism is why this many poor people exist.
CEO's are willing to do anything to increase their salaries, they don't care about the poor, what they care about is staying rich.
By separating the workers, by telling them, work harder, work for yourself, They are hiding their true motive.

To have the worker care only for himself, to think he is working for himself when really he is a pawn of the Bourgeoisie.

Inshallah, when people can learn to work for a collective community can this Evil be purged from the earth,.

The Gap between rich and poor is the product of the conceited Ideals of Capitalism.

In conclusion, the Corporate Big wigs will be the only one benefiting from this Monstrosity.

Driving By Capitalism they will Taint the Most Sacred Place in Islam.

Imperialism is something ain't it?

[IbnMardhiyah]

Niqabi: - Please go back and read the previous post where I put up that email chain between me and Br. Saidi - the new hotels are being put up because of increasing demand, made by the pilgrims themselves. You can talk all you want about how we should be willing to bear some additional hardships and whatnot, but the fact is, its the Muslims themselves that want these facilities and services.

Said: I'm convinced that you really have no clue what you're talking about. You made a long list of innuendos and distorted claims. Have you ever run a business yourself? Have you ever studied economics?

Capitalism is the system of business whereby its controlled by INDIVIDUAL entities as opposed to the STATE. Plain and simple. That's how it was during the time of the Muslims, during the Khulafaa ar-Rashideen, and that's how it is now, all around the world.

The existence of the huge disparity in wealth ownership between different classes doesn't mean the system is broken. Collection of taxes and distribution of financial support to the poor and needy is the responsibility of the government, and if that's not going well, YOU DON'T BLAME CAPITALISM.

Banks and their interest-bearing systems are not part of capitalism as you so ignorantly imply. That's just their economic system, not ours. If you go the Mideast, Asia and Malaysia, the Islamic banks all support a capitalistic [not socialist] economic system.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with a minority owning the majority of the wealth, that's how it always is.

What you're advocating is a socialist system, and that's just plain dumb. It doesn't work.

[SaidAbdullahofDarfur]

Originally Posted by IbnMardhiyah

Please go back and read the previous post where I put up that email chain between me and Br. Saidi - the new hotels are being put up because of increasing demand, made by the pilgrims themselves. You can talk all you want about how we should be willing to bear some additional hardships and whatnot, but the fact is, its the Muslims themselves that want these facilities and services.

That still doesn't make it right moron.
People are being exploited and the muslims are being betrayed.
There needs to be a Makkan Mini-state, Like the vatican....

Said: I'm convinced that you really have no clue what you're talking about. You made a long list of innuendos and distorted claims. Have you ever run a business yourself? Have you ever studied economics?

I've had a sole proprietor ship....Keep it that way, never wanted to exploit anyone...If it ever got bigger I'd use a socialist system.

Capitalism is the system of business whereby its controlled by INDIVIDUAL entities as opposed to the STATE. Plain and simple. That's how it was during the time of the Muslims, during the Khulafaa ar-Rashideen, and that's how it is now, all around the world.

Utter Bull.

Socialism is not State control of wealth.
Its when the people own the means of production.

Its like the business I ran, where I the worker was earning my rightful pay, and owning what I used to get it.

Its the construction workers owning the cranes, bulldozers, tractors; The typist owning the computers,typewriters; The Writers owning the publishing companies.

This Is true socialism.

The existence of the huge disparity in wealth ownership between different classes doesn't mean the system is broken. Collection of taxes and distribution of financial support to the poor and needy is the responsibility of the government, and if that's not going well, YOU DON'T BLAME CAPITALISM.

The existence of the HUGE disparity in wealth between classes, Diffenitely means the system is broken.
Collection of taxes from the poor for the poor only helps the rich.

Its Not going well.
WE NEED TO BLAME CAPITALISM

Banks and their interest-bearing systems are not part of capitalism as you so ignorantly imply. That's just their economic system, not ours. If you go the Mideast, Asia and Malaysia, the Islamic banks all support a capitalistic [not socialist] economic system.

Err, they kinda are...
Without a bank, capital is worthless.

Mideast? Asia? Oceania? Ever heard of a 'Peoples Republic'
Thats a Blatant mark of socialism.
Libya, Algeria, Bangladesh, etc.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with a minority owning the majority of the wealth, that's how it always is.

What you're advocating is a socialist system, and that's just plain dumb. It doesn't work.

Wow you actually advocate the poor people outnumbering the rich.

For an older person, who's supposed to be so full of wisdom...
I find your world view hilarious...


Is this the state of the Ummah?
Is this the muslim condition?

Do we really care so little about our brothers and sisters that instead of changing a system to help those in need, we'd rather just say, "Its fine", Or "its your own fault".

If your brothers and sisters fall, Why don't you help them up?

[Aryan_]

Originally Posted by IbnMardhiyah

Its got more to do with business then you'll ever care to admit or have the capability to know. See my last post.

Your last post? What does wearing tight jeans have to do with Mecca?

Originally Posted by Revert

Thee Masjid Al Haram is not a historical building, its been demolished over and over since it was first constructed. However Allah will protect the Kabba as has been done since the advent of Islam.

Yeah it might be an eyesore, it might be a decadent waste of time but if we focus on this instead of the real issues then we won't move on as an Ummah..will we?

I was talking about the Baitullah not the Masjid that accommodates it, although you are aware that the Baitullah too has been destroyed and rebuilt in the past?

The Meccan authorities need to understand that Mecca is a site of historical importance for Muslims, and that they should try to preserve as much of it's cultural ambience as possible, not turn it into another western or GCC clone city. Even the Chinese stopped a starbucks inside the Forbidden City.

[wheelworks]

This discussion (not really) has reached a stage where there are two groups. Each group is convinced he is absolutely right (divinely or otherwise). So you guys will never stop arguing untill your point is proven or the other party is killed off.

So I suggest you guys get on with your Ramadan (less than a week remaining) and mebbe continue after Eid?

[IbnMardhiyah]

Originally Posted by SaidAbdullahofDarfur

That still doesn't make it right moron.
People are being exploited and the muslims are being betrayed.
There needs to be a Makkan Mini-state, Like the vatican....

Try making some sense when you talk and back it up with FACTS. Is that really so hard?

The Vatican is not a model for Makkah and if that's what you think then you need to sit down and think about it some more. The Vatican doesn't handle the massive amount of numbers like Makkah does.

I've had a sole proprietor ship....Keep it that way, never wanted to exploit anyone...If it ever got bigger I'd use a socialist system.

You couldn't use a socialist method if it got bigger. It just wouldn't work.

Utter Bull.

Socialism is not State control of wealth.
Its when the people own the means of production.

Its like the business I ran, where I the worker was earning my rightful pay, and owning what I used to get it.

Its the construction workers owning the cranes, bulldozers, tractors; The typist owning the computers,typewriters; The Writers owning the publishing companies.

This Is true socialism.

Look, you're really beginning to sound like an idiot. Do NOT make up your own definitions for stuff that's already been established. Socialism is state-control of wealth in all its stages, production, distribution, and so on. Even when "the people" own the assets and the wealth, they need a central authority for administrative purposes, and thus that's why its said socialism [and communism] are state-controlled methods.

The existence of the HUGE disparity in wealth between classes, Diffenitely means the system is broken.
Collection of taxes from the poor for the poor only helps the rich.

Its Not going well.
WE NEED TO BLAME CAPITALISM

??? WTH?

Was the system EVER designed or intended to achieve parity between all classes? No, so how the heck are you saying its broken? Do you go around talking about things that are working perfectly fine and then insist that its broken?

The rich and poor both pay taxes. In Western countries, the tax laws are designed to allow you to minimize the amount of tax you pay, if you're smart enough to read the details. That's why the rich corporations and individuals pay tax lawyers to minimize the amount of tax they have to pay. And that's perfectly legal and there's nothing unethical or bad about it.

Do we really care so little about our brothers and sisters that instead of changing a system to help those in need, we'd rather just say, "Its fine", Or "its your own fault".

If your brothers and sisters fall, Why don't you help them up?

I have this really fabulous idea! How about you keep your assumptions to yourself because you'll only end up embarrassing yourself if I were to correct you on those ignorant remarks.

[niqabi]

Originally Posted by IbnMardhiyah

I have this really fabulous idea! How about you keep your assumptions to yourself because you'll only end up embarrassing yourself if I were to correct you on those ignorant remarks.

Hi. I have a fabulous idea! How about we all speak to each other with proper adaab because you'll end up embarrassing yourself if I were to correct you on those ignorant remarks.

[Timbit]

Ibn, how come you put two As in the middle of Allah?
Allaah?

[IbnMardhiyah]

Originally Posted by Timbit

Ibn, how come you put two As in the middle of Allah?
Allaah?

That's just an alternate transliteration of the arabiy, which some people feel is more accurate than spelling it as "Allah". Either way is acceptable to me.

[ChotooMotoo]

IbM might change his mind when after years of work he decides to go on Hajj, and despite having a very successful career and good savings, he's not able to afford it. He loves the capitolist system becuase so far it's been good to him. He hasn't experienced the downsides of the system, so why would he think it's bad? He is also of the mindset that anyone who works hard can pull themselves up in a capitolist system... which is incredibly naive, but oh well.

It's no use arguing with him, his mind is made up. He is right, everyone else is wrong. So, give it a rest. You guys cannot come to a middle ground on this.

[IbnMardhiyah]

Originally Posted by ChotooMotoo

It's no use arguing with him, his mind is made up. He is right, everyone else is wrong. So, give it a rest. You guys cannot come to a middle ground on this.

Wow.

All I asked was that you bring evidence that the Saudi government is responsible for all that everyone is blaming them for.

I guess that's asking for the impossible huh.

[ChotooMotoo]

Originally Posted by IbnMardhiyah

Wow.

All I asked was that you bring evidence that the Saudi government is responsible for all that everyone is blaming them for.

I guess that's asking for the impossible huh.

That's not what this is about, and you know it.

[IbnMardhiyah]

Originally Posted by ChotooMotoo

That's not what this is about, and you know it.

I already stated what this is about - Muslims making ridiculous, sensationalist claims that have no little or no merit, and it's about me [or anyone else] asking for those claims to be backed up and proven to be credible.

[Revert]

Originally Posted by Aryan_

I was talking about the Baitullah not the Masjid that accommodates it, although you are aware that the Baitullah too has been destroyed and rebuilt in the past?

The Meccan authorities need to understand that Mecca is a site of historical importance for Muslims, and that they should try to preserve as much of it's cultural ambience as possible, not turn it into another western or GCC clone city. Even the Chinese stopped a starbucks inside the Forbidden City.

I understood what you meant bro. I know that the Kabba has been destroyed and rebuilt many, many , many times. HOwever putting the focus on material things rather than the spiritual is foolish. People here are yelling without thinking. Everythign is a test including the construction of the Hotel. If we let every little thing bother us and react in a manner beffitting someone who rides the short bus to school then we ar eno better than anyone else. However if we act with dignity and ignore the eyesore and go about with our business then we prove to ourselves we are better off.


Buildings, dirt and the earth as beutiful as it is, is not the focus of our worship.

Originally Posted by SaidAbdullahofDarfur

Is this the state of the Ummah?
Is this the muslim condition?

Do we really care so little about our brothers and sisters that instead of changing a system to help those in need, we'd rather just say, "Its fine", Or "its your own fault".

If your brothers and sisters fall, Why don't you help them up?

Let me give you a heads up Q-tip, the Computer you are using the Transportation you use daily the Fuel you use is all a by-product of Capitalism, unless you plan to live in a cave please stop with the hypocrisy.


The system is not in need of change, its the condition of people.