Makka, luxury hotel, luxury mall.

[Aryan_]

Originally Posted by IbnMardhiyah

They don't call me Ibn Murder for nothing.

They... you mean the same people who call you brown sugar

[Struggle4Peace]

Originally Posted by Dubai3000

The Bin laden group today has become one of the richest companies in the world, yet they dont give up on thier greedness and just want to get richer and richer.

A wise woman once said..."one can reach the depth of poverty but can never never reach the heights of wealth"

[wheelworks]

I love how Islamicans derail most threads so quickly I guess thats what Muslims do in addition to terrible parking and the inability to keep the restroom clean

[Timbit]

Shadha, there're always going to be people who disregard what you have to say because of your age. And when you become older, then just because of your sex.

IbnM: I said it in the previous thread too, but I'll say it again. I can't believe you think this way. I can't believe anybody thinks this monstrosity right next to the Haram Sharif is a good idea.

[Aryan_]

Originally Posted by Timbit

And when you become older, then just because of your sex.

What does sex have to do with this. Don't be so vulgar. It is the month of ramzan.

[IbnMardhiyah]

Originally Posted by Timbit

IbnM: I said it in the previous thread too, but I'll say it again. I can't believe you think this way. I can't believe anybody thinks this monstrosity right next to the Haram Sharif is a good idea.

For the record, I dismissed what Shadha said because she was wrong. Her thoughts on this matter reflect her lack of knowledge and experience. The Saudi government is not to blame.

As for how I think, I'm about what's practical, lawful, and halal - when it comes to dealing with challenges of this scale. You, and many others, are merely objecting to it because of its sheer size, yet you fail to acknowledge, or perhaps even realize that there was little other choice. This is evidenced by the fact that no one's been able to offer a better solution to the actual problem - the demand for increased capacity.

All you guys are doing, is arguing about how ugly it looks, and how it seems out of place, situated next to the Haram Shareef. We even have people going obscenely overboard, comparing it to Las Vegas, na3udhubellah.

Now, I really have no objection to what your thoughts are on how it looks - since beauty is in the eye of the beholder of course.

But if you're going to make false claims and statements, then I will challenge you on that. Like saying its not needed, or that the Saudi Govt. is to blame for increased Hajj prices. I dislike the Saudi Govt. like many other people, but that doesn't lead me to making unjust and false statements.

The fact is, its the market that determines prices and projects. If there's a demand, there's an opportunity. The demand is created by the Muslims themselves, as well as the general fact that the numbers are only going to increase year after year.

[Dubai3000]

^^ all we are saying is that if they really cared about the pilgrims they would build space for every one. Not just the people who can buy thier way. They are not being fair, that is the main issue.

[IbnMardhiyah]

Originally Posted by Dubai3000

^^ all we are saying is that if they really cared about the pilgrims they would build space for every one. Not just the people who can buy thier way. They are not being fair, that is the main issue.

You really have no clue what you're talking about.

Anyways. The following is a follow up email exchange after I had a phone conversation with Br. Saidi from IslamiCity's Hajj travel dept.- check their site for their Californian office and anyone can call him up.

The text in red is his, as put in his reply directly in between my original text, which is black.

I've edited personal emails for security.

From: SAIDI7@---.com
Sent: October 6, 2007 3:45 PM
To: salmaan@--- .ca
Cc: Aleem@IslamiCity.com
Subject: Re: hajj prices understanding

In a message dated 10/5/2007 2:31:11 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, salmaan@---.ca writes:

Salamualaikum warahmatullaah Br. Saidi

So, as per our phone conversation, here’s what I understood: Hajj prices from before two years ago were pretty much steady, but in the past two years they have risen steadily for the following reasons:

-Airfare prices have increased because the airlines have to compensate for rising fuel prices -The decline in the value of the US dollar has also contributed to rising prices. (some airlines use EURO as the basis for their pricing)

-The demolition of most of the hotels at Jabal Omar in Makkah have increased capacity pressure on other hotels, so they are charging more. Jabal Omar is where the new Bayt al-Abraj hotel complex is being built.

-Some hotels have increased their prices by 100% over TWO years ago prices as a result.

-The Saudi government doesn’t issue any visas now unless the trip operators have physically visited Makkah and Madinah before the Hajj to secure contracts with hotels and transport companies (andmake complete payments), so that no pilgrims are left staying in the streets even though they’ve already paid. These regulations took effect only a few years back and have the effect of putting a big financial burden on hajj operators to come up with a lot of cash to finance the operation before selling a single package.

-It was because of mostly American and Canadian pilgrims, as well as pilgrims from Gulf countries, who wanted very clean 4-star and 5-stars ( only a handful in Makkah) hotels, because of that, many hotels have responded by making those accommodations available and thus, the increase in hotel prices. Due to the new Saudi regulations to give residency to people who are willing to invest in Saidi Arabia. A lot of new investors who came to Saudi Arabia the last few years for that purpose found the best & easiest investment is in hajj/Umrah hotel accommodations sector. Accordingly, you have now a new middle man who buy lots of hotel rooms and sell it with a hefty mark up.

This is mostly what I understood from our conversation. If it is correct and you would like to add anything, please let me know.

Jazakallahu khayran

Wasalamun alaikum

Salman

The last bit about the middleman buying hotel rooms - such as Alpha1 - is referring to timeshares.

[Revert]

The MAsjid has been demolished and rebuilt so many times of history. Makka has been the epicentre of trade and commerce for thousands of years. Capitalism has driven Makka even in the time of our Prophet.

I don't understand what the problem is.

[Aryan_]

Originally Posted by Revert

The MAsjid has been demolished and rebuilt so many times of history. Makka has been the epicentre of trade and commerce for thousands of years. Capitalism has driven Makka even in the time of our Prophet.

I don't understand what the problem is.

Haint got anything to do with capitalism. Most European cities have laws preventing large buildings around historical landmarks and so they aren't obscured and the feel of the city isn't altered. That is exactly what this monstrosity does.

It is a tacky soulless building that looks like any one of the crappy development projects springing up in Gulf countries. The Arab rulers and brown sugar are impressed with anything shiny, to them it's probably "being modern". Why not just turn the Baitullah into a starbucks?

[SaidAbdullahofDarfur]

Originally Posted by IbnMardhiyah

Stop lying.

That picture is not the "latest" picture - its just an artist's rendering of what the final structure will look like, which isn't slated for completion until 2009.

With the amount of increasing pilgrims year after year, there is no other choice except to build up, and to tear down previously existing structures. There is substantial demand from average pilgrims to be closer to the Haram-Shareef so that they don't waste time getting there from the hotels farther away.

Before Islamica went down, we had a massive thread about this same topic, where the majority of posters were just blowing a lot of hot air and hyperbole without checking any facts or even offering viable alternatives.

Criticizing is real easy, sitting on a chair thousands of miles away. If you don't understand economics, urban planning and crowd management - and most of you clearly do not - then kindly shut up.

Spoken like a true capitalist.

You actually support this?
The welfare of the people of makkah come before the ambitions of the government.

This Is why many people want Makkah and Madinah, out of Saudi hands.

The government doesn't care about its people, and it surely doesn't care about islam.

[IbnMardhiyah]

Originally Posted by Aryan_

Haint got anything to do with capitalism.

Its got more to do with business then you'll ever care to admit or have the capability to know. See my last post.

Most European cities have laws preventing large buildings around historical landmarks and so they aren't obscured and the feel of the city isn't altered. That is exactly what this monstrosity does.

European cities may be what your standards are, but thats not what the standards of the Muslims are. The Haram-Shareef is not a historical landmark.

Originally Posted by SaidAbdullahofDarfur

Spoken like a true capitalist.

You actually support this?
The welfare of the people of makkah come before the ambitions of the government.

This Is why many people want Makkah and Madinah, out of Saudi hands.

The government doesn't care about its people, and it surely doesn't care about islam.

What's wrong with capitalism?

Try toning down the hyperbole and instead speak based on facts, not emotion. If you don't know what the demands of the situation were, then please be quiet.

And FYI - the needs of the Muslims who come every year to visit His House command top priority, NOT the needs of the people of Makkah and Madinah.

[SaidAbdullahofDarfur]

Whats wrong with capitalism?
You gotta be kidding me....

The entire system of making a buck for screwing someone over is fine in your eyes?

Okay, try telling me how building a luxry mall/hotel in Makkah is going to help anyone except The Rich?

[Dubai3000]

Originally Posted by IbnMardhiyah

Its got more to do with business then you'll ever care to admit or have the capability to know. See my last post.

European cities may be what your standards are, but thats not what the standards of the Muslims are. The Haram-Shareef is not a historical landmark.



What's wrong with capitalism?

Try toning down the hyperbole and instead speak based on facts, not emotion. If you don't know what the demands of the situation were, then please be quiet.

And FYI - the needs of the Muslims who come every year to visit His House command top priority, NOT the needs of the people of Makkah and Madinah.

^^^ the problem is excessive capitalism that saudis practice, they become greedy. And being Greedy is against the vary foundation of islam. Prophet (pbuh) was not a greedy man. He lived in a simple home (which you guys destroyed) with a simple lifestyle despite being the leader of all the muslims.

[Dubai3000]

Originally Posted by SaidAbdullahofDarfur

Whats wrong with capitalism?
You gotta be kidding me....

The entire system of making a buck for screwing someone over is fine in your eyes?

Okay, try telling me how building a luxry mall/hotel in Makkah is going to help anyone except The Rich?

Yeah these people are blind and would never understand that. They think that greedy capitalism is part of islam. Thats why you see saudis going after money like dogs. They dont care a bit about islam and about the muslims around the world.