[shadha]

Right. So whose definition of teenybopper are you going by again? Your own? Figures.

Anyway, which government has control over Mekkah again?


shadha-

[IbnMardhiyah]

Originally Posted by shadha

Right. So whose definition of teenybopper are you going by again? Your own? Figures.

This definition: That you're a teenager who is just going off on an unrelated tangent, as is typical of most people your age who haven't learned properly yet the importance of thinking twice before opening their mouth.

You pay your own bills? Ooo wow!! Welcome to Club Yesterday!!

NEXT.

Anyway, which government has control over Mekkah again?

The KSA.

More specifically, its the Haramayn authority - an actual body of the government that is specifically responsible for the Two Cities and everything associated with their importance to Muslims worldwide.

I fail to see how that relates to your belief that Saudi is responsible for increased prices for Hajj.

But hey, thanks for trying anyways.

[ChotooMotoo]

Originally Posted by IbnMardhiyah

This has nothing to do with Saudis. They aren't the ones setting the prices on the hotel rooms or the timeshares. They aren't the ones who set the airfare. They aren't the ones who set the prices for many other things related to Hajj.

So why are you bringing up the straw-man argument of blaming Saudis for increased Hajj prices?

Because they ARE partly to blame. In order to go for Hajj or Umrah, you have to buy a Hajj package. Your Hajj package is put together by a representative of the ministry of Hajj. They are the ones who decide which travel agents are allowed to operate with which customers. It is a very regulated affair, anyone who says otherwise is either ignorant or delusional. You HAVE to go through the approved travel agents. They won't authorize your visa if you don't. Now, I don't know if you've ever investigated just how much Hajj costs, but every authorized travel agent in North America basically offers the same accomidations, and very similar prices. All of them promise to put you up at a 5 star hotel within either walking distance to the Kaaba, or will shuttle you there. The price for Hajj this year is more than $6000 per person. Last year you could do it for $4500. Airline tickets didn't change that much in one year. Of course the increase is in the package price. Since everything must be done through official channels, it's rediculous to assert that the Saudi government has nothing to do with the prices, or cannot control them at all.

[shadha]

Chotoo, responded accordingly. I'm sorry I can't be bothered anymore, he's all yours. Have fun.

Ibn: This definition: That you're a teenager who is just going off on an unrelated tangent, as is typical of most people your age who haven't learned properly yet the importance of thinking twice before opening their mouth.

Oh the nerve.

Anyway, I'm not about to do round abouts with you for you have more than proved just how immature you truly are.


shadha-

[IbnMardhiyah]

Originally Posted by ChotooMotoo

Because they ARE partly to blame. In order to go for Hajj or Umrah, you have to buy a Hajj package. Your Hajj package is put together by a representative of the ministry of Hajj. They are the ones who decide which travel agents are allowed to operate with which customers. It is a very regulated affair, anyone who says otherwise is either ignorant or delusional. You HAVE to go through the approved travel agents. They won't authorize your visa if you don't. Now, I don't know if you've ever investigated just how much Hajj costs, but every authorized travel agent in North America basically offers the same accomidations, and very similar prices. All of them promise to put you up at a 5 star hotel within either walking distance to the Kaaba, or will shuttle you there. The price for Hajj this year is more than $6000 per person. Last year you could do it for $4500. Airline tickets didn't change that much in one year. Of course the increase is in the package price. Since everything must be done through official channels, it's rediculous to assert that the Saudi government has nothing to do with the prices, or cannot control them at all.

Ummmm, all that still doesn't provide any evidence that the KSA govt. is "partly" responsible for Hajj price increases.

LIKE many other Muslims, I've also put my family on a plane for Hajj, and 've also worked with entities that assist pilgrims, and my dad used to run a travel agency in California for many years.

The fact is, travel costs go up every year. Yes, many packages this year are above the $6000 mark, but there are many that are still sitting at $4500, and everywhere in between as well. You can't blame the Saudi government if the hotels are increasing their prices.

If anything, the Saudi government routinely subsidizes thousands of pilgrims every year for both Hajj and Umrah, offering massively discounted packages. One of my brothers went in 2006 for Umrah where the whole package was a flat $1000, because it was subsidized by WAMY, and plenty of other pilgrims from Canada went on the same trip as well.

So please, blaming the Saudi government is just a popular trick to prop up arguments that have no backbone. It just doesn't hold water because the KSA govt. also pays for many pilgrims each year as well.

Try again.

[ChotooMotoo]

Originally Posted by IbnMardhiyah

Ummmm, all that still doesn't provide any evidence that the KSA govt. is "partly" responsible for Hajj price increases.

LIKE many other Muslims, I've also put my family on a plane for Hajj, and 've also worked with entities that assist pilgrims, and my dad used to run a travel agency in California for many years.

The fact is, travel costs go up every year. Yes, many packages this year are above the $6000 mark, but there are many that are still sitting at $4500, and everywhere in between as well. You can't blame the Saudi government if the hotels are increasing their prices.

If anything, the Saudi government routinely subsidizes thousands of pilgrims every year for both Hajj and Umrah, offering massively discounted packages. One of my brothers went in 2006 for Umrah where the whole package was a flat $1000, because it was subsidized by WAMY, and plenty of other pilgrims from Canada went on the same trip as well.

So please, blaming the Saudi government is just a popular trick to prop up arguments that have no backbone. It just doesn't hold water because the KSA govt. also pays for many pilgrims each year as well.

Try again.

Try again yourself. They have the power to regulate hajj package prices just like the USA has the power to regulate gas prices. They choose not to do it for North American travelers. I looked extensively for hajj packages this year, and 99% of them were over the $6000 per person mark. You can always find outliers, that doesn't prove your point. In fact you have no point to prove.

Hajj prices haven't gone up significantly for travelers from other parts of the world. The only thing that has increased from last year is air fare. However, most government partially subsidize the airfare for their haji's, so that hasn't changed much either. Prices go up every year, but an increase of more than $1000 from one year to another... there is more than simple inflation at work there.

North American pilgirms are fairly required to stay in luxury accomodations, even if they would rather not.

You can't compare it to Umrah, that's a different story. We performed Umrah for about $2000 per person for a one week stay including airfare. The Umrah package itself was only about $400, the rest was the ticket. That was in 2006. Hajj 2007, you stay for 11 days. The airfare costs about $2000, which means that $4000 is just the package cost. You went from $400 to $4000 in the span of a few months. Also, for Umrah you can stay in cheap hotels. They don't allow that for Hajj.

Think of it this way. You have a group of travelers all going from Frankfort to Toronto. In that group of travelers you have Pakistani's, Swedes, and Americans. All of them are required to stay in a hotel for a week in Toronto, or their visas will be denied. The Canadian government has decided that Pakistani's should be required to pay 3X the amount of the Swedes, and they must stay at the Sharaton hotel, whether they want to or not, or they will be denied entry into the country. American's, on the other hand, are barred from staying in luxury accomodations, they have to stay at the local Bali Hai or similar hotel. Is that fair? Is that moral? You are basically denying the right of visiting Toronto to many deserving Pakistani's who, if they were Swedes or Americans could afford to visit, but since they are Pakistani, they cannot. That is why people get upset about this.

[Dubai3000]

Originally Posted by IbnMardhiyah

Ummmm, all that still doesn't provide any evidence that the KSA govt. is "partly" responsible for Hajj price increases.

LIKE many other Muslims, I've also put my family on a plane for Hajj, and 've also worked with entities that assist pilgrims, and my dad used to run a travel agency in California for many years.

The fact is, travel costs go up every year. Yes, many packages this year are above the $6000 mark, but there are many that are still sitting at $4500, and everywhere in between as well. You can't blame the Saudi government if the hotels are increasing their prices.

If anything, the Saudi government routinely subsidizes thousands of pilgrims every year for both Hajj and Umrah, offering massively discounted packages. One of my brothers went in 2006 for Umrah where the whole package was a flat $1000, because it was subsidized by WAMY, and plenty of other pilgrims from Canada went on the same trip as well.

So please, blaming the Saudi government is just a popular trick to prop up arguments that have no backbone. It just doesn't hold water because the KSA govt. also pays for many pilgrims each year as well.

Try again.

^^ why do you suck up to the saudi government?? almost every muslim in the world knows that they are a corrupt, greedy US puppet.

your pretty much destorying your arguments credability by sucking up to them.

[Struggle4Peace]

uhoo here's another heated attack coming your way Dubai...Get your sheild and armour ready matey

[Dubai3000]

^^ he can BS whatever he want's to support his unislamic corrupt government. He is probably a greedy corrupt person himself.

[IbnMardhiyah]

Originally Posted by ChotooMotoo

Try again yourself. They have the power to regulate hajj package prices just like the USA has the power to regulate gas prices. They choose not to do it for North American travelers. I looked extensively for hajj packages this year, and 99% of them were over the $6000 per person mark. You can always find outliers, that doesn't prove your point. In fact you have no point to prove.

Look, bickering about hajj prices doesn't get you anywhere. I googled hajj 2007 prices and looks at three random websites. Two of them were American, and both had rpices under $6,000.

One of them was the Al-Mu'adhdhan Hajj Group which is charging $5600 - USD

The other was IslamiCity which had its lowest package set at $5995 - USD

Here in Toronto, we have a lot of ads for packages that are at the low $5000 mark - CDN,

When I called up all three places [pjone numbers are listed on the websites] all three said that the most significant reason for price increases was hotel and airfares. The hotel prices are set by the hotel chains, and airfare prices go up every year anyways regardless of what your destination is, and this year its gone up significantly because in NORTH AMERICA, the airlines are charging more because Hajj is coming at peak season - during Christmas - and that's the law of the market, as demand goes up and supply reaches peak levels, prices go up accordingly.

So far, the Saudi government has nothing to do with all that.

The only thing Saudi really controls is the fee for the Hajj package which includes their local mu3allim, and thats about $275 - $300 USD, and about $375 CDN.

Not even 10% of the Hajj package price is controlled by the KSA government, so like I said, you all are using a straw man argument because its always easy to pick on governments when you have nothing substantial to offer.

If you guys want to prove your stance, then pick up the phone like I did, and make the calls.

Hajj prices haven't gone up significantly for travelers from other parts of the world. The only thing that has increased from last year is air fare. However, most government partially subsidize the airfare for their haji's, so that hasn't changed much either. Prices go up every year, but an increase of more than $1000 from one year to another... there is more than simple inflation at work there.

Its understandable that Muslim governments would subsidize hajj packages ... but why would the Canadian and American governments do it? Why would airfare packages for long distance travelers be commensurate with those coming in on short haul flights?

North American pilgirms are fairly required to stay in luxury accomodations, even if they would rather not.

That's not true. My mom got a 3-star package last year before she sheleld out a few extra for the Hilton. 3-star isn't luxury by our standards.

So in sum, the Saudi govt. doesn't set Hajj prices, and they don't need to interfere with the market. They already control the amount of visitors anyways via visa caps.

[IbnMardhiyah]

Originally Posted by Dubai3000

^^ why do you suck up to the saudi government?? almost every muslim in the world knows that they are a corrupt, greedy US puppet.

your pretty much destorying your arguments credability by sucking up to them.

Originally Posted by Dubai3000

^^ he can BS whatever he want's to support his unislamic corrupt government. He is probably a greedy corrupt person himself.

Hi.

I noticed you just registered here recently. You're either an old user masquerading under a new username, or you're a newbie who doesn't know jack about me or my time served on Islamica.

FYI - I dont suck up to the KSA government. I never have. Plenty of people who know me online and in real life know that I have plenty of legitimate gripes with the KSA govt.

So please, drop the silly tired excuse of "oh you're sucking up to the KSA govt" because it clearly doesn't fly. I simply look at the facts, and I don't look at what's popular and what's being dropped from the bandwagon. The fact is, in this topic, its very easy to make the Saudi government a scapegoat if you don't really have anything substantial to offer in your statements.

As for your credibility, you had none. Your first post in this thread was a lie, so please - don't try to preach to me about credibility.

My credibility is solid. I back up what I say and I challenge you to do the same.

[Dubai3000]

yeah your credibility is solid and thats why almost every one is disagreeing with you.

also my first post is not a lie, just the picture was a tad bit future, its will look like that in 1-2 years.

[ChotooMotoo]

you called 3 people. Good for you. Have a piece of candy.

You actually provided reference for everything I said, so I don't know why you are trying to come of as all superior. The price for airfare and package, including hajj fee, qurbani fee and vaccination is more then $6000 in most instances. Your "Oh, well this one was $5995" come on, that is $6000 for all intents and purposes, and so is the $5600 one by the time you pay for the extra fees. You're grasping at straws to prove wrong something which is true. I don't demonize anyone. Saudi government could level the playing field, but they don't. Hajj is very regulated, you should know that if your family was really in the business of aranging Hajj packages. One travel agent in particular I talked with this year was very upset about the $1000 increase in package prices from last year to this. In his words, it was a conspiracy, that Hajj is kind of a Saudi Mafia affair. Well, in the USA the government tries to clamp down on the Mafia. The KSA apparently does not.

Give it a rest.