[IbnMardhiyah]

What ever.

[shadha]

shadha-

[wheelworks]

Originally Posted by Dubai3000

guys imagine if the building collapases by a earth quick or something else what would happen? its so close that it would surely destory the whole masjid and even Kaba it self

It won't destroy the foundations of the Ka'ba (Unless Allah wills it), so it could be rebuilt easily. Anyway, a human life is more valuable than the life of the Ka'ba, and they're being killed left and right donchaknow

[ChotooMotoo]

Originally Posted by shadha

Damn Ibn, you wild out in this thread.

Anyway, I'm sure it's generally agreed upon [at least I hope it is] that it is a Disney on crack looking catastrophe and for those who value historic architecture feel it's a shame that such a modern day looking monstrosity is being built upon a very sacred and historic land.

Somehow I'm not believing that the average pilgrim will be able to afford a room at this 5-Star Luxury Hotel, emphasis on the 5-Star aspect. So, while it might accommodate 65,000 people, what social status those people are on, should be a major factor. Taking space for catering to only the rich folk, emphasis on the only.

That's why I believe many are against it. Hajj is becoming a get rich scheme for the already filthy rich boys of Saudi. Consider how much Hajj already costs. Unfortunately, as the years pass, I wonder if I'll ever be able to afford Hajj, which has sadly become a financial burden to many.

Then again, until we have the accurate official hotel room rates, everyone is left to speculate the price. So let's wait and see.

And a shopping mall? Yeah, I'm feeling the holiness in that.

Architecture wise, Mekkah is starting to look more and more like Dubai, and that's not a pretty site, especially considering the religious sacredness of Mekkah. It's becoming some tourist attraction and I'm sorry, that's not what Hajj is about.

A side note of total personal opinion- I am so disgusted and irritated with Muslim folk feeling that they NEED to go on Hajj every year, taking a spot of a person who has never been on Hajj. Why in the hell does one need to go on Hajj EVERY year? It's not impressive. To me, that is the epitome of selfishness and religious extreme.


shadha-

Good post. Well, as we see in the US market with the "housing bubble" prices for hajj can only go up so far before people stop going. It seems to me that most of these luxury highrise places are designed for western Muslims (from Europe or America) and thost only constitute a small percentage of the hajj population anyway. If they price themselves too high, western Muslims will simply stop going. Just think, this year Hajj packages are $1000 more PER PERSON than they were last year, most of that increase is due to increase in the package. The ticket itself is only about $200 more than last year. That kind of inflation is not sustainable. I'm sure the numbers for hajj this year will be less than last year. Who knows, maybe that's what the Saudi government wants, and that's why they are allowing these horendous prices even for cheap third rate hajj packages.

People don't need to go on Hajj every year (unless they are a tour guide, and that's their business). What can happen though is that a person will do the first Hajj for themselves, and then go on behalf of someone who has the money, but not the physical ability, or someone who died and couldn't do hajj. That's the only reason I could see for doing hajj more than once.

[shadha]

Chotoo: People don't need to go on Hajj every year (unless they are a tour guide, and that's their business). What can happen though is that a person will do the first Hajj for themselves, and then go on behalf of someone who has the money, but not the physical ability, or someone who died and couldn't do hajj. That's the only reason I could see for doing hajj more than once.

Exactly.


shadha-

[Sugarberry]

Originally Posted by shadha

Ibn: So yes, I get pissed off when I see Muslims getting all worked up about nothing and wasting everyone's time on frivolous issues, instead of educating themselves and finding out what the heck they're talking about before opening their mouth.

It's all a matter of opinion. You deem that this hotel is a non-issue. That's great, good for you. However, MANY people do not view it the same way as you [use this thread as a general assessment]. So if you're having a problem with people wasting "everyone's time on frivolous issues" then why are you fueling the flame by responding? Why are you allowing them to waste your time then you turn around and itch about them wasting your time? Say your peace and leave it at that.

As I previously stated, all any of us can do is speculate the hotel room rates. If in the future it turns out that you were right and the rooms are inexpensive and affordable for the average pilgrim or desiring pilgrim, FANTASTIC! I hope you're right. However, if you are incorrect and the rooms are expensive and only the rich could afford it...then that's not oki in my book and in the book of many others. So just as you have the right to be nonchalant about it, we have the right to be heated over it.

In terms of the Saudi people themselves not complaining about it- I don't care. Mekkah does not belong to the Saudis. So sorry. It belongs to the Ummah. We, the Ummah, all have the right to have a say in how our land should be built upon/destoryed/so on and so forth. Now that doesn't mean the Saudis will listen but it also doesn't mean we shouldn't speak up.


shadha-

Great post

[Struggle4Peace]

I agree people don't need to go hajj every year. MOSTLY it's the grandparents who are annual visitors because that's the only holiday they get.

[nooni]

Originally Posted by Struggle4Peace

Why did they need another mall? I guess the business is good also Arabs don't really have much enterainment. The only activity, they have is shopping.

we have weddings too

[wheelworks]

Originally Posted by nooni

we have weddings too

Weddings at a mall? How lovely! All they gotta do is position the wedding so it's next to the most expensive of stores so they'll receive more expensive gifts.

[Variable]

Originally Posted by IbnMardhiyah

You probably missed the part where the entire hotel complex is described as having accommodations for upto 65,000 people. The article that Dubai3000 regurgitated is talking about timeshares on a small fraction of those units. Do you know what timeshares are? And the difference between them and regular hotel units?

Make the critical distinction, and if you can't make it yourself, then try to understand where I'm making it. The majority of the units in the hotel complex will be for pilgrims, and they are not going to be timeshare units, which are private and are used longer than a regular hotel suite.

Nope, didn't miss that... I said it corroborated what I was saying. If you wanna give me a price list of the rates in this five-star luxury hotel, and prove me wrong, go for it.

No, it won't.

Yearly Hajj attendance is expected to grow to nearly 20 million by the end of the next decade. Moving even half that amount by train five times a day, on extremely tight schedules [right before each prayer] would either break it down in a short order, or require massive maintenance, repair and upgrade costs that are not sustainable. I don't care how much Tokyo's system moves, it still doesn't move as many passengers on such demanding frequencies as any system in Makkah would, for pilgrims.

There are no rail transport systems in the world today that move as many passengers on such short notice like the one that would be required in Makkah.

The study conclusions, as well as items from many other KSA Govt. studies regarding transportation, are available on their public websites. However, spoon-feeding is not a habit of mine, as you'll notice.

I checked it out, and didn't find any of these alleged studies. The burden of proof isn't on me to back up your statements with sources.

Anyway, I don't feel like arguing anymore. If you're happy with doing tawaf on the Las Vegas strip... enjoy.

[Ugur]

Variable and other fellow Islamicans, I am inclined to agree with IbnMardhiyyah. I believe that the hajj has never been a poor, ordinary, working-class Muslim's business in history. It is not such a Muslim's duty either. Only those Muslims who are rich enough and who can afford and secure a safe journey to Makkah are required to do the hajj. Just think about earlier centuries when we did not have these means of safe and fast transportation. People had to travel for months to be able to do the hajj. Only a few could do that. Therefore, being a hajji, or a pilgrim, is something so extraordinary and so worthy of special attention that in my culture you are forever called a haji after you have accomplished the hajj.

I think the real point of the hajj is that all regions of the world are sending their representatives to the holy shrine and NOT that everybody is visiting it. Not everybody is supposed to do the hajj. Only the rich-enough.

[shadha]

Ugur...so basically, only the rich should prosper and benefit from Hajj? I'm sorry, you have the most ignorant post in the entire thread if not the entire history of Islamica.

Will every single Muslim in the world be able to perform Hajj at least once in their lifetime? No. Unfortunately not every Muslim in the world have the financial means to. However, that does not mean, Saudi should be allowed to further compound problems by increasing the financial expense of Hajj, forcing the average Muslim to submit to the saddening thought that Hajj is only for the Rich & Wealthy. I'm sorry, that is insane and unIslamic.

Another thing that is utterly insane and unIslamic is your belief on what the real point of Hajj is suppose to be. Hajj is not about nations sending their rich folk as ambassadors for Hajj. What next, we're going to have required costly designer Ihrams and Hijabs in order to perform Hajj?

Hajj is NOT just for the rich nor was it ever meant to be. Islam is NOT just for the rich nor was it ever meant to be. Our forefathers and foremothers of Islam, were not rich yet they went on Hajj and they did not abuse their power on others. So who is Saudi to abuse their power so that Hajj will become a pilgrimage for only the rich?

Try again.


shadha-

[IbnMardhiyah]

Originally Posted by shadha

Ugur...so basically, only the rich should prosper and benefit from Hajj? I'm sorry, you have the most ignorant post in the entire thread if not the entire history of Islamica.

....

Hajj is NOT just for the rich nor was it ever meant to be. Islam is NOT just for the rich nor was it ever meant to be. Our forefathers and foremothers of Islam, were not rich yet they went on Hajj and they did not abuse their power on others. So who are we now to allow Saudi to abuse their power so that Hajj will become a pilgrimage for only the rich?

Try again.

Like I said .... teenyboppers who don't know jack about what the hell they're talking about, coming and just barfing useless cranial excreta all over the thread. If there's anyone here who's made ignorant remarks, its people like you.

If you actually bothered to go talk to the shyoukh - i.e people who aren't ignorant about the Deen - then they would tell you that its part of the sunnah of Allaah ta3ala to ensure that the Hajj cannot be performed by just anyone, and that those who do perform it will go through financial, temporal, and physical difficulties to do it - regardless of what new technological advancements and comforts develop over time. So they mention how in the past, it would be a massive operation, loading up the caravan with supplies for a long trek to Makkah, having to be prepared for highway robbers, dealing with the possibility that they might die of a disease along the way there or back, and so on.

In modern times, you have to put up with other difficulties like all the BS with travel security, flight delays, mandatory inoculations, visa requirements, massive crowds, fires, stampedes, expenses, and still-exhausting travel, and so on. And this will continue - it'll never be easy to perform Hajj, even if you are rich. All that does is ensure that you have the money, but the temporal, travel, and physical difficulties remain.

Thew above post by Shadha is a stellar example of what I was talking about earlier - all you people have these preconceived notions and misconceptions about what Hajj and Makkah and etc etc. are supposed to be like - ALL OF IT WRONG and misplaced.

Oh and the ultimate bomb?

Poor people don't go on Hajj, except those that are in Saudi already.

Sorry to wake you up so harshly. But a lot of you are just blowing so much hot air, just like in the previous thread. And if you don't like the fact that I talk straight and shoot from the hip [misinterpreted as "arrogance"] then please just sit down and be quiet.

They don't call me Ibn Murder for nothing.