[Dubai3000]

Originally Posted by wheelworks

Oooh looks nice! Like ol' Big Ben. Does it have a gong too? or better yet a loud speaker so the muadhin's voice echoes from the tower for adhan.

guys imagine if the building collapases by a earth quick or something else what would happen? its so close that it would surely destory the whole masjid and even Kaba it self

[IbnMardhiyah]

Originally Posted by Variable

Assumptions? Yes. Ignorant? No. None of us here as far as I know are close enough to the situation to know exactly what's going down. We don't know what engineering challenges impede the accomodation of the growing number of pilgrims every year. But if this is the best they can come up with - I'd question where they're finding their planners.

You don't need to know exactly what's going down. A lot of the information and reasoning behind major expansion projects in the Two Cities, are available online, for the public, by the KSA Govt. If many of the ignorant posters here had bothered reading that information first, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

There is no way that the price of those rooms will be affordable for the majority of the pilgrims. Who gets to stay there? What are they going to base it on, first-come first-serve? No, I'm thinking market price instead... which is corroborated by Mr. Dubai3000's article.

You claimed you weren't ignorant. Yet you go off making ignorant assumptions. What's up with that?

Anyone who lives in Saudi, or has been there for multiple pilgrimages will tell you that the KSA authorities routinely cap rates for rooms and services during Hajj to make it more affordable to a larger percentage of pilgrims. they don't do this every year or to all the hotels, but it happens very frequently.

What the article that Dubai3000 posted is talking about, is talking about individual units that are owned privately and are offered as time-shares by those individuals. Neither the hotel management, nor the government has any control over that. That's not a problem and that's not what we're talking about, and neither can any person here really object to that either, because its just business. If I run a business [which I do] of any kind, then I can charge whatever the heck I want to whoever is willing to pay. The market itself determines the price - when it comes to timeshares.

But that's not what was being discussed so please don't mix the two issues.

Nice. Perhaps I was foolish to think that on a spiritual trip such as this one, that issues of earning power would take a back seat to a spirit of selflessness.

Indeed, you were foolish enough to think such naive thoughts.

Muslims on the other hand, have known that accommodations in Makkah, just like any other city in the world, vary greatly as do the costs for the same. If we wanted an equal level of facilities for all pilgrims at an equal price, then that would require either total government control or massive subsidies, and in either case that would be horribly inefficient, leaving the world's Muslims complaining about the misappropriation and misuse of their money and trust.

I'm not saying all this because I'm concerned for myself and I'm not thinking of the Ummah. I'm never going to go on Hajj, so this isn't something I'll ever have to deal with. I'm an outsider looking in, and what I see is selfish materialism stamped all over something I always understood was supposed to be sacred.

As you implied earlier, you were wrong in your thoughts. Even before Prophet Muhammad [saws] came along, the pilgrimage was a time of increased commercial activity in Makkah, as evidenced by the yearly Ukaz market. People knew that pilgrims were coming into town and would pay extra for goods and services.

Its nothing new.

You seem to be taking this all as some sort of personal insult. Do you have some sort of stake in this? You come here slinging insults at people. You challenge people to bring to the table some idea of an alternative. I did, and you dismissed it out of hand (for no well thought-out reason). I'd say that this isn't normally like you, but honestly, your arrogance is getting tiresome.

No, not a personal insult, but I take insult at the collective pettiness of people, objecting to such projects simply because of - they don't like the way it looks, or that it goes against their preconceived and unqualified opinions of what they think Makkah should be like.

I dismissed your idea for the rail transit because it won't work with current technology, there have been studies already carried out that show the same. I hope you're not taking "personal insult" at my dismissal, are you? Because it's not personal at all.

As for my arrogance getting tiresome, yes, welcome to the two-way street that I live on. The incessant whining of people opposed to such projects is also tiring. Sometimes it is met with patient admonition, and sometimes its met with abrasive corrections. Get over it.

Originally Posted by Dubai3000

you still haven't answered, what about the 80% of people who can't afford this, they still have to walk in the heat to get to the masjid. Like the article says this is only made of for the rich people and to make huge profits. nothing else.

I didn't bother answering you because your claims are unverifiable.

I have seen nothing to back up your statement of "80% of the people can't afford it" - I;ve already seen that you misrepresent items and information, and the article that you posted is talking about time-shares, not the new hotels. The article doesn't state that the hotels are for rich people only, as you imply that it does. Make the distinction.

In any case, you failed to make that difference because either you don't know what the difference is, or because misrepresenting information and acting in such an unethical manner is well within your comfort zone.

[Dubai3000]

Originally Posted by IbnMardhiyah

You don't need to know exactly what's going down. A lot of the information and reasoning behind major expansion projects in the Two Cities, are available online, for the public, by the KSA Govt. If many of the ignorant posters here had bothered reading that information first, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

You claimed you weren't ignorant. Yet you go off making ignorant assumptions. What's up with that?

Anyone who lives in Saudi, or has been there for multiple pilgrimages will tell you that the KSA authorities routinely cap rates for rooms and services during Hajj to make it more affordable to a larger percentage of pilgrims. they don't do this every year or to all the hotels, but it happens very frequently.

What the article that Dubai3000 posted is talking about, is talking about individual units that are owned privately and are offered as time-shares by those individuals. Neither the hotel management, nor the government has any control over that. That's not a problem and that's not what we're talking about, and neither can any person here really object to that either, because its just business. If I run a business [which I do] of any kind, then I can charge whatever the heck I want to whoever is willing to pay. The market itself determines the price - when it comes to timeshares.

But that's not what was being discussed so please don't mix the two issues.

Indeed, you were foolish enough to think such naive thoughts.

Muslims on the other hand, have known that accommodations in Makkah, just like any other city in the world, vary greatly as do the costs for the same. If we wanted an equal level of facilities for all pilgrims at an equal price, then that would require either total government control or massive subsidies, and in either case that would be horribly inefficient, leaving the world's Muslims complaining about the misappropriation and misuse of their money and trust.

As you implied earlier, you were wrong in your thoughts. Even before Prophet Muhammad [saws] came along, the pilgrimage was a time of increased commercial activity in Makkah, as evidenced by the yearly Ukaz market. People knew that pilgrims were coming into town and would pay extra for goods and services.

Its nothing new.

No, not a personal insult, but I take insult at the collective pettiness of people, objecting to such projects simply because of - they don't like the way it looks, or that it goes against their preconceived and unqualified opinions of what they think Makkah should be like.

I dismissed your idea for the rail transit because it won't work with current technology, there have been studies already carried out that show the same. I hope you're not taking "personal insult" at my dismissal, are you? Because it's not personal at all.

As for my arrogance getting tiresome, yes, welcome to the two-way street that I live on. The incessant whining of people opposed to such projects is also tiring. Sometimes it is met with patient admonition, and sometimes its met with abrasive corrections. Get over it.



I didn't bother answering you because your claims are unverifiable.

I have seen nothing to back up your statement of "80% of the people can't afford it" - I;ve already seen that you misrepresent items and information, and the article that you posted is talking about time-shares, not the new hotels. The article doesn't state that the hotels are for rich people only, as you imply that it does. Make the distinction.

In any case, you failed to make that difference because either you don't know what the difference is, or because misrepresenting information and acting in such an unethical manner is well within your comfort zone.

lol u seriously are blind, the whole article's theme is about pricing. Most muslims in the world can not afford those types of pricing. only rich saudis can.

and tell me one thing, whats the point of opening a western style high class mall just beside the mosque??? i seriously think if Makkah was in hand of non muslims they would even manage it better then you guys. They would atleast have some respect for the people and for importance of the place. Last time when i went for ummra in 2005, i swear by god i didn't feel that i was in a holy place. The whole city was about materialism and capitalism, the vary things i wanted to escape.

[Caramel_Candy]

I could understand building another hotel but why do they need another mall..they already have a pretty nice one inside the Hilton.

[Variable]

Originally Posted by IbnMardhiyah

You don't need to know exactly what's going down. A lot of the information and reasoning behind major expansion projects in the Two Cities, are available online, for the public, by the KSA Govt. If many of the ignorant posters here had bothered reading that information first, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

You claimed you weren't ignorant. Yet you go off making ignorant assumptions. What's up with that?

Anyone who lives in Saudi, or has been there for multiple pilgrimages will tell you that the KSA authorities routinely cap rates for rooms and services during Hajj to make it more affordable to a larger percentage of pilgrims. they don't do this every year or to all the hotels, but it happens very frequently.

What the article that Dubai3000 posted is talking about, is talking about individual units that are owned privately and are offered as time-shares by those individuals. Neither the hotel management, nor the government has any control over that. That's not a problem and that's not what we're talking about, and neither can any person here really object to that either, because its just business. If I run a business [which I do] of any kind, then I can charge whatever the heck I want to whoever is willing to pay. The market itself determines the price - when it comes to timeshares.

But that's not what was being discussed so please don't mix the two issues

This...

"A week's lease on a 33 sq metre studio with city views costs £3,600 in low season. A studio with views of the House of Allah, the Ka'bah, costs £93,500 to lease during the month of hajj."

...and this

"Talal Mahmood Malik is chief executive of Alpha1Estates, which is selling timeshares for the 1,240 suites to Muslims in the UK and Europe. In the company brochure, prospective buyers are told they can expect an average rental return of between 10% and 15% a year.
He says: "You could see it as a financial investment and there will be cowboys interested in making a quick buck."

...is what corroborates my assertion that most pilgrims won't be able to afford it, which counters your statement to the contrary - which is what we were in fact discussing thanks.

And if somewhere in there they say that some space will be set aside for low-income pilgrims, it'd still be a tacky monstrosity.

Indeed, you were foolish enough to think such naive thoughts.

Muslims on the other hand, have known that accommodations in Makkah, just like any other city in the world, vary greatly as do the costs for the same. If we wanted an equal level of facilities for all pilgrims at an equal price, then that would require either total government control or massive subsidies, and in either case that would be horribly inefficient, leaving the world's Muslims complaining about the misappropriation and misuse of their money and trust.

Or, they could just zone ugly hotels away from holy sites. I've seen cities in third world countries handle their sites better than this.

I dismissed your idea for the rail transit because it won't work with current technology, there have been studies already carried out that show the same.

It won't work with current technology? The metro in Mexico City does it, and it's not a wealthy country. The biggest train station in Japan handles three million passengers daily. Challenging? Yeh, but possible. Where are these studies that show it won't work? I had a look and can't find them. Care to point me in the right direction?

As for my arrogance getting tiresome, yes, welcome to the two-way street that I live on. The incessant whining of people opposed to such projects is also tiring. Sometimes it is met with patient admonition, and sometimes its met with abrasive corrections. Get over it.

Seriously, your arrogance isn't cool dude. neither is making everyone else out to be unread whiners to jusify your own self-percieved superiority. I don't need to 'get over it', it's a non-issue to me. You on the other hand might what to get over yourself.

[IbnMardhiyah]

Originally Posted by Variable

This...

- snip -

...is what corroborates my assertion that most pilgrims won't be able to afford it, which counters your statement to the contrary - which is what we were in fact discussing thanks.

You probably missed the part where the entire hotel complex is described as having accommodations for upto 65,000 people. The article that Dubai3000 regurgitated is talking about timeshares on a small fraction of those units. Do you know what timeshares are? And the difference between them and regular hotel units?

Make the critical distinction, and if you can't make it yourself, then try to understand where I'm making it. The majority of the units in the hotel complex will be for pilgrims, and they are not going to be timeshare units, which are private and are used longer than a regular hotel suite.

And if somewhere in there they say that some space will be set aside for low-income pilgrims, it'd still be a tacky monstrosity.

Or, they could just zone ugly hotels away from holy sites. I've seen cities in third world countries handle their sites better than this.

That's your subjective opinion and quite frankly, nobody cares. You yourself said you have no intentions of ever making the Hajj.

It won't work with current technology? The metro in Mexico City does it, and it's not a wealthy country. The biggest train station in Japan handles three million passengers daily. Challenging? Yeh, but possible. Where are these studies that show it won't work? I had a look and can't find them. Care to point me in the right direction?

No, it won't.

Yearly Hajj attendance is expected to grow to nearly 20 million by the end of the next decade. Moving even half that amount by train five times a day, on extremely tight schedules [right before each prayer] would either break it down in a short order, or require massive maintenance, repair and upgrade costs that are not sustainable. I don't care how much Tokyo's system moves, it still doesn't move as many passengers on such demanding frequencies as any system in Makkah would, for pilgrims.

There are no rail transport systems in the world today that move as many passengers on such short notice like the one that would be required in Makkah.

The study conclusions, as well as items from many other KSA Govt. studies regarding transportation, are available on their public websites. However, spoon-feeding is not a habit of mine, as you'll notice.

I don't need to 'get over it', it's a non-issue to me. You on the other hand might what to get over yourself.

Nice try, but don't give me that - please. If it was a non-issue to you, you wouldn't have brought it up in the first place, or chosen to continue making it a point of discussion.

[Musashi]

Asallamu 'alaikum wa rahmatulLahi wa barakatuh

>>>Oooh looks nice! Like ol' Big Ben.

That's what I thought it was at first. I was very confused for a sec.

I never thought Ibn Mardhiya ever acted this way. Scary...

The idea of this building repulses me. Istaghfuru Allah
I remember the old topic. 'Twas depressing.

[Struggle4Peace]

The luxury new mall is massive. It's very big and clean though don't have many stores in it just yet. I saw just mothercare on the ground floor. I guess they will have more of western brands in it. They have KFC on the first floor and nice sitting area. The theme inside is shipwreck.

Why did they need another mall? I guess the business is good also Arabs don't really have much enterainment. The only activity, they have is shopping.

[IbnMardhiyah]

Originally Posted by Struggle4Peace

Why did they need another mall? I guess the business is good also Arabs don't really have much enterainment. The only activity, they have is shopping.

Makkah has been a center of commercial activity and trade for thousands of years. Its very genesis lies in commercial trade, unlike most other cities around the world. Shopping is as common to Makkah as anything else.

Trade and commercial activity are encouraged in Islam, and I don't recall anything in our texts that prohibits such activity in Makkah, or even during the Hajj season. The markets and commercial activities have always been there, and some of the best and most beloved Sahabaa in the sight of Allaah ta3ala were businessmen and merchants.

So please, all of you who are pontificating about how "materialistic" Makkah has become and how you can't concentrate on your worship - just drop the act please, and instead realize that your lack of concentration is a sad remark on your inability to focus on what's important - sincerity in your worship. Trying to shift the blame to the city itself is nothing short of a cheap shot. Makkah has always been bustling with commercial activity and trade, long before you were born and it'll be so long after you die. And yet, plenty of Muslims achieve khushoo while praying in the Haramayn, making tawaaf, being in Makkah and realizing the importance of the city. And they do all of this whilst simultaneously being in the midst of all that commercial activity that you're complaining about.

So if they can do it, why can't you?

If you accept that fact, then the only objection left when we get down to the meat of the matter, is that some people don't like the way the new hotel complex looks, because its taller than the minarets of the Haram-Shareef.

Even though you do realize its impractical to limit the height of hotels in that city to being less than the height of the minarets.

[Struggle4Peace]

Originally Posted by IbnMardhiyah

Makkah has been a center of commercial activity and trade for thousands of years. Its very genesis lies in commercial trade, unlike most other cities around the world. Shopping is as common to Makkah as anything else.

Trade and commercial activity are encouraged in Islam, and I don't recall anything in our texts that prohibits such activity in Makkah, or even during the Hajj season. The markets and commercial activities have always been there, and some of the best and most beloved Sahabaa in the sight of Allaah ta3ala were businessmen and merchants.

So please, all of you who are pontificating about how "materialistic" Makkah has become and how you can't concentrate on your worship - just drop the act please, and instead realize that your lack of concentration is a sad remark on your inability to focus on what's important - sincerity in your worship. Trying to shift the blame to the city itself is nothing short of a cheap shot. Makkah has always been bustling with commercial activity and trade, long before you were born and it'll be so long after you die.

If you accept that fact, then the only objection left when we get down to the meat of the matter, is that some people don't like the way the new hotel complex looks, because its taller than the minarets of the Haram-Shareef.

Even though you do realize its impractical to limit the height of hotels in that city to being less than the height of the minarets.

IbnMardhiyah, I don't recall criticizing arab lifestyle. Also Makkah is not the only place saudis are building huge mall towers, it's all over the country. The only way I can justify or try to understand others dislike towards the new improvements is, people go with the mind phrase to get 'an islamic experience'. I think islam is usually attributed to old/traditional, I guess this is what I had in my mind which is why it was a huge shock to me that the Makkah had everything we have here.

[shadha]

Damn Ibn, you wild out in this thread.

Anyway, I'm sure it's generally agreed upon [at least I hope it is] that it is a Disney on crack looking catastrophe and for those who value historic architecture feel it's a shame that such a modern day looking monstrosity is being built upon a very sacred and historic land.

Somehow I'm not believing that the average pilgrim will be able to afford a room at this 5-Star Luxury Hotel, emphasis on the 5-Star aspect. So, while it might accommodate 65,000 people, what social status those people are on, should be a major factor. Taking space for catering to only the rich folk, emphasis on the only.

That's why I believe many are against it. Hajj is becoming a get rich scheme for the already filthy rich boys of Saudi. Consider how much Hajj already costs. Unfortunately, as the years pass, I wonder if I'll ever be able to afford Hajj, which has sadly become a financial burden to many.

Then again, until we have the accurate official hotel room rates, everyone is left to speculate the price. So let's wait and see.

And a shopping mall? Yeah, I'm feeling the holiness in that.

Architecture wise, Mekkah is starting to look more and more like Dubai, and that's not a pretty site, especially considering the religious sacredness of Mekkah. It's becoming some tourist attraction and I'm sorry, that's not what Hajj is about.

A side note of total personal opinion- I am so disgusted and irritated with Muslim folk feeling that they NEED to go on Hajj every year, taking a spot of a person who has never been on Hajj. Why in the hell does one need to go on Hajj EVERY year? It's not impressive. To me, that is the epitome of selfishness and religious extreme.


shadha-

[IbnMardhiyah]

Originally Posted by Struggle4Peace

IbnMardhiyah, I don't recall criticizing arab lifestyle. Also Makkah is not the only place saudis are building huge mall towers, it's all over the country. The only way I can justify or try to understand others dislike towards the new improvements is, people go with the mind phrase to get 'an islamic experience'. I think islam is usually attributed to old/traditional, I guess this is what I had in my mind which is why it was a huge shock to me that the Makkah had everything we have here.

I'm not saying you were criticizing