[Dubai3000]

Originally Posted by IbnMardhiyah

You want it plain and simple? You're wrong. Just like your very first post in this thread was wrong. All hyperbole and gross distortions.

But if you want to get down and really prove your statements, then back it up with actual data - which is all publicly available, btw.

lol your a fool to think that evey one afford this. Its not made for all the people,

[Dubai3000]

btw sorry about my first post, but that building will look like that in 1-2 years. This is the latest picture http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/681/p1060044sm9.jpg

as you can see its already getting huge.

[zzze]

asslaamu alaykum

Originally Posted by MossadConspiracy

uh thats how thousands of people get trampled to death

ws

sorry? I wasn't against reducing the number of hajj/umrah visas, I said that further reduction would Help the crowd control.

edit: and anyway, i'm jealous of those who were preordained to get trampled to death

[shsh]

Originally Posted by zzze

I'm really disgusted at the way in which the hotel is going to tower over the masjid, I find it disrespectful and insulting.

i agree.

tenchar.

[Dubai3000]

This is the mall's website. it clearly says that its one of the most luxurious malls and hotel on the website.

:: Welcome ::

[MossadConspiracy]

Originally Posted by zzze

sorry? I wasn't against reducing the number of hajj/umrah visas, I said that further reduction would Help the crowd control.

edit: and anyway, i'm jealous of those who were preordained to get trampled to deat

oh my mistake. sorry i misunderstood you

btw it probbaly hurts alot to get trampled to death, there are less painful ways to get guaranteed paradise

ws

[zzze]

assalamu alakum

I'm sure it does lol...stomach disease/ jihaad and childbirth don't sound any less painful Whatever Allah Wills ...May He grant us Jannah at the end of the paths that we choose. Ameen.

[Dubai3000]

Riazat Butt
Tuesday November 14, 2006
The Guardian


Timeshares in the ZamZam tower, right, look on to the Grand Mosque, left. Critics say such buildings should not be close to holy sites. Photograph of Grand Mosque: Awad Awad/AFP/Getty



It is the holiest site in Islam, the birthplace of the prophet Muhammad and the place the world's Muslim population turns and prays to five times a day.
Millions of people make a pilgrimage to Mecca every year to wash away their sins, but muddying the waters of this spiritual experience is a $390m (£205m) luxury timeshare development looming over the House of Allah.
Timeshare, a concept more usually associated with Torremolinos and the Algarve, has spread to Mecca and divided opinion in the Muslim world. Built by the Binladin Group, the construction firm founded by Mohammed bin Laden, the father of Osama, the ZamZam tower offers five-star accommodation, a shopping centre, restaurants and a car park.
Article continues

Opponents say the skyscraper and its money-spinning potential goes against the spirit of hajj, a pilgrimage founded on purity, equality and simplicity.
Saudi authorities will use the initial revenue to maintain the holy site, but there is nothing to stop homeowners from selling or subleasing their timeshare for inflated prices. Irfan Ahmed al-Alawi, a historian and co-chair of the Islamic Heritage Foundation, set up to protect sites of cultural and historical interest in Mecca, said: "This timeshare is the exploitation and commercialisation of a holy city.
"The excuse given by the Saudi government is that there's not enough accommodation, but do you really need to be so close to the Grand Mosque and the House of Allah? ZamZam has facilities that are irrelevant. You don't need a shopping centre and restaurants when you're doing hajj. Marble flooring and five-star accommodation will not enhance your pilgrimage or make you a better Muslim. The idea that you can make a profit is especially offensive. Such desecration and disrespect would have been unthinkable 30 years ago."
A week's lease on a 33 sq metre studio with city views costs £3,600 in low season. A studio with views of the House of Allah, the Ka'bah, costs £93,500 to lease during the month of hajj. The Saudi government allowed the towers' construction to cater for Mecca's growing popularity as a year-round destination. Around 4 million people visit during hajj and 3 million visitors during Ramadan, but many Muslims visit at other, quieter times of the year. The Saudi government does not object to expanding facilities in Mecca.
A diplomatic source said: "People want to shop, somewhere to eat, they have the right to do these things. It is not haraam [forbidden] and we cannot stop them from wanting to do these things. People don't just do hajj and leave any more. For many it may be their only chance to visit so they want to be here as long as they can. They are getting quality accommodation and amenities. We need somewhere to put pilgrims because there are so many coming here. Besides, there are already five-star hotels in Mecca."
ZamZam is part of the Abraj al-Bait complex, one of the largest construction projects in the world, measuring 1.4m square metres. The 480m-high complex will include six other towers besides the ZamZam, two helipads and a four-storey shopping mall. It will be the tallest building in Saudi Arabia and, once completed, one of the tallest in the world. According to the Riyadh chamber of commerce and industry, Mecca has become a property hotspot. Investment during the last three decades has totalled £57bn and land in Mecca can cost up to £50,000 a square metre - more expensive than Manhattan or Mayfair.
Talal Mahmood Malik is chief executive of Alpha1Estates, which is selling timeshares for the 1,240 suites to Muslims in the UK and Europe. In the company brochure, prospective buyers are told they can expect an average rental return of between 10% and 15% a year.
He says: "You could see it as a financial investment and there will be cowboys interested in making a quick buck. But most people see it as a spiritual investment. There is a massive modernisation and regeneration programme in Mecca but non-Muslims won't be interested in investing. There's nothing to do there except pray and if you're non-Muslim you can't get into Mecca anyway."
He said that business had been a bit slow at first because the timeshare concept was "alien" to Muslims, but trade had picked up during Ramadan. He added: "We've been surprised by the number of young people buying timeshares, but there have been more sales to older Muslims, who want to retire there."
One timeshare owner, who did not wish to be named, said: "I have a large family and we go to Mecca every few years. It will provide an incentive for me to go there more often. I could make money from renting it out but, for me, it's not about that."
The Mecca goldrush has come at a price, says Dr Alawi, with many historic sites wiped off the map. He claims there are now fewer than 20 structures remaining in Mecca dating back to the time of Muhammad 1,400 years ago. He adds: "The sad thing is that as Mecca becomes more commercialised its spiritual side will fade, but I don't hear Muslims complaining."


Luxury timeshares on offer at Islam's holiest pilgrimage site | The Guardian | Guardian Unlimited

[IbnMardhiyah]

Originally Posted by zzze

Stuck up...? it takes one to know one. I'm really disgusted at the way in which the hotel is going to tower over the masjid, I find it disrespectful and insulting.

Yeah, that's right.

Believing that your desire to have a nice sweet bird's eye view of Makkah overrules the right of proper accommodation for the Hajjies, is more disrespectful than the insult you're claiming. And to top it off, people sitting in another country find it disrespectful [my my, what lofty standards we have] yet the locals themselves have no problem with it.

So what makes you all think you have the right to get angry over the lack of eye-candy? Get a Life, for real.

What happens when they need even more space? What happens when the expensive hotel rooms are taken up the there are more and more people willing to fork out more to be closer?

There won't be people willing to fork out more to be closer, because that's pretty much as close as you can get. Many people do spend a lot of time sleeping or staying on the actual grounds of the Haram, during the hours which its allowed. And when the numbers of pilgrims continues to increase, they'll just do the next sensible thing - build more towers, either nearby or farther away. At that point in time they may even install new transport systems to move people underground or above-ground via monorail from the hotels to the masjid.

Furthermore, the KSA gov't. has a huge responsibility to use their wealth and the land wisely, which is in fact the wealth and land of the whole Ummah. In simple economic terms, it makes sense to build high-capacity [65,000 people, hello?] accomodations closer to the masjid than it would be to build smaller, separate units spread around.

Do you guys even think about these things? The part of Makkah around the Haram Shareef WAS an "eyesore" anyways even before this project, with all the plain gray concrete and steel apartment towers cramming up the whole city. And now they're just building something that looks decent and accommodates more people in a more efficient manner.

In my humble opinion I think they need to think of a long term solution. With the visa limits- whoever is written down to perform umrah/hajj will do so..Allah swt will facilitate the means insha Allah.

FYI - they already are thinking long term and they don't need you to tell them that. Back in February 2004, they issued a decree announcing a 20-year plan for Makkah, Madinah, and the other smaller sites.

Step back and look at yourselves. Crying and whining like spoiled babies. Complaining about WHAT? That the hotel towers are taller than the current minarets of the Haram-Shareef? BIG DEAL. Nowhere does it say that's illegal or even unethical or even undesirable. And the current minarets were built higher ANYWAYS several years back to go taller than the hotels that were built back then. They can easily do the same now.

Stop thinking about your individual selves and try to think about what's better for the Ummah, for a change. None of you here can say that your objections are better for the Ummah or pilgrims as oppose to the advantage gained by high-capacity buildings that would house the growing number of pilgrims.

[zzze]

assalamu alaykum

Ibn, seriously man, you have a lot of pent up energy, I suggest you hit the gym. I think we're al entitled to our own opinions, and I believe that such a thing is disrespectful when situated right next to the ka'ba, even if it's not haraam. It's not about the eyesore, I've heard that much of makkah isn't very pretty but I don't suggest demolishing it. It's not about the building itself, it's about where it's being built. And I cannot be bothered replying to your posts, though I'm flattered that you take so much time out to reply to me

[Variable]

Originally Posted by IbnMardhiyah

Don't you guys ever tire of the ignorant assumptions?

The hotels nearest to the Haram-Shareef, while do charge a premium because of locale, are not exorbitant or out of range of the majority of pilgrims. People know that they will have to pay a bit extra, and they save up and do so. My parents went for Hajj just this last season, and my mom is a healthy lady - she can walk properly and all, but she absolutely didn't want to waste all that time sitting in a bus, stuck in traffic. She shelled out maybe a couple hundred more to stay right next to the masjid.

Assumptions? Yes. Ignorant? No. None of us here as far as I know are close enough to the situation to know exactly what's going down. We don't know what engineering challenges impede the accomodation of the growing number of pilgrims every year. But if this is the best they can come up with - I'd question where they're finding their planners.

As for the cost, here is what I do know... that every able-bodied Muslim is encouraged to perform the Hajj in his or her lifetime. Now last time I checked, the Ummah's demographic wasn't the most affluent on the planet. There is no way that the price of those rooms will be affordable for the majority of the pilgrims. Who gets to stay there? What are they going to base it on, first-come first-serve? No, I'm thinking market price instead... which is corroborated by Mr. Dubai3000's article.

So while many Muslims from less-advantaged backgrounds, who have saved up for Lord knows how long (and probably racked up a few physical ailments doing so) get to sit stuck in traffic, and still have to look at that eye-sore, people like you're able-bodied mother can stay across the street because they 'absolutely don't want to waste all that time sitting in a bus. Nice. Perhaps I was foolish to think that on a spiritual trip such as this one, that issues of earning power would take a back seat to a spirit of selflessness.

I'm not saying all this because I'm concerned for myself and I'm not thinking of the Ummah. I'm never going to go on Hajj, so this isn't something I'll ever have to deal with. I'm an outsider looking in, and what I see is selfish materialism stamped all over something I always understood was supposed to be sacred.

You seem to be taking this all as some sort of personal insult. Do you have some sort of stake in this? You come here slinging insults at people. You challenge people to bring to the table some idea of an alternative. I did, and you dismissed it out of hand (for no well thought-out reason). I'd say that this isn't normally like you, but honestly, your arrogance is getting tiresome.

[IbnMardhiyah]

Thanks zeezee.

I've had it with Muslims bickering about stupid stuff like the Starbucks ruckus, the stupid boycotts, and now this.

Seriously, it just brings nabeyuna Muhammad's hadith of Muslims being useless like froth upon the ocean water - it brings it so front and center.

[shsh]

vari...gotta spread reps.

[Dubai3000]

Originally Posted by IbnMardhiyah

Thanks zeezee.

I've had it with Muslims bickering about stupid stuff like the Starbucks ruckus, the stupid boycotts, and now this.

Seriously, it just brings nabeyuna Muhammad's hadith of Muslims being useless like froth upon the ocean water - it brings it so front and center.

you still haven't answered, what about the 80% of people who can't afford this, they still have to walk in the heat to get to the masjid. Like the article says this is only made of for the rich people and to make huge profits. nothing else.