Female Circumcision in Egypt

[Kona_Silat]

For those who are not familiar with clitoris.. cutting or mutilating the clitoris is like cutting or mutilating the male genitals. And yes when a child is in the womb the clitoris either becomes a clitoris (if a female) or the clitoris becomes a penis (if a male). So a clitoris is liek the female penis.

[Variable]

Originally Posted by Kona_Silat

For those who are not familiar with clitoris.. cutting or mutilating the clitoris is like cutting or mutilating the male genitals. And yes when a child is in the womb the clitoris either becomes a clitoris (if a female) or the clitoris becomes a penis (if a male).

I think in some people's case it just becomes their brain.

[AceOfHearts]

Originally Posted by Ugur

If there is discrimination against women in the authentic ahadith, you have to say that the same sexual discrimination against women is present in the Qur'an too. Let's not even mention the noble verse of the noble Qur'an which allows men to hit their wives when really necessary, the ayah which you and your friends are distorting with laughable dictionary work.

This verse refers to women and sons as possessions of this world which allure men. If I subscribed to your westernized, pseudo-Quranic point of view, I would have to say: "Women and young people ("sons") are made by the author of the Qur'an into commodities that are at the disposal of men. More, there is no verse which says that men are possessions of women in the same way that according to the Qur'an women are possessions of men. This verse also classifies women in the same category as 'heaped-up hoards of gold and silver' and 'horses blanded for blood and cattle' and 'well-tilled land'!!! No Quranic verse classifies men in the same way among commodities as it does with women. This is awful patriarchy and sexism on the part of the Qur'an and its author." Astaghfirullah, astaghfirullah. I don't say this but you are about to say it if you become only a little more westernized in your viewpoint regarding the place of women in society.

Accept Islam, the ahadith and the Qur'an as they are and stop twisting the clear attitude of the Qur'an toward men-women relationship because of your westernized beliefs.

You noticed that the only way you can attack me is by attacking the Qur'an itself. I am shocked to see how you view the Qur'an, which is devoid of using wisdom or understanding.

Let us look at a more accurate way of looking at the Verse:



The word used in arabic in the Verse is 'naas' which translates to 'mankind', or 'all people'. Yet you erroneously translated it as 'men' consistantly. For example, Surah An-Nas uses this word 'naas' extensively and it refers to all of mankind ("Say, 'I seek refuge in the Lord of mankind", and not '...Lord of men'). The common addressing 'yaa aihuhannaas', as in 2:21 or 31:33 is a call to all people male and female, and not just men. Similiarly in many other places, the word 'naas' is used to refer to both male and female.

The arabic word for men used in the Qur'an is 'rijaal', which has not been used here in Verse 3:14. The word 'rijaal', has been used in the Qur'an to refer to men only, see for example 33:4, 7:48, 7:63, 24:37.

Yet you continuously translated the word 'naas' as 'men' so that the Verse sounds like it is for men only. The correct traslation of the Verse would be as follows:

"Attractive for all people (naas) are the love of charms...." [Qur'an 3:14]

'All people' includes women too, because the word 'naas' does. Note that items mentioned in the Verse such as ornaments of gold and silver are also desirable by women, as well as everything else mentioned in the Verse.

Allah has given women a type of attraction that men do not have, this is not the sexual type of attraction by the least. It can be appreciated by both men and women. With this understanding, we can understand why Allah mentions women in the Verse.

The misconception that women are made equal to lifeless objects by Allah, who created women, is your own personal belief which you inadvertantly declared to the world in your post, all while you claim to be a Muslim.

It is depressing to find people like you who will even take shots at the Qur'an to win an argument, and even more depressing when the argument is to do with accepting female "circumcision".

Originally Posted by Ugur

The verse does not say that "some men think these are just worldly possessions". It plainly says that "these are wordly possessions that men covet." The wording of the verse obviously does not allow the interpretation that you are forcing. But in your pseudo-Quranic but actually westernized mind it is permissible to pervert the Qur'an's obvious wording in every way possible and make it suit your pre-conceived mindset.

This verse actually implies that men are also worldly possessions for women. It is possible that you have also thought about this implkication. But the real point is, if this was a hadith rather than a verse of the Qur'an, you would not think about this implication at all. You would label the hadith as a dirty patriarchal ruling which does not agree with [your perverted understanding of] the Qur'an.

And men like me mustn't talk about the Qur'an? So that westernized Americanized psuedo-Quranics like you hijack Allah's religion and bastardise it and make it ready to be assimilated by the secular, Godless, American world order.

Other verses from the Qur'an:



If this was not from the Qur'an but from the hadith, you would accuse the prophet (sa.w.s.) or the narrators of the hadith of being dirty patriarchalists violating Allah's commands and treating women as inferiors. But you can't do this and are very sorry that you can't do this because this is a clear verse of the Qur'an.



If this verse was not Qur'an but hadith, you would accuse the narrators of the hadith of being dirty patriarchalists who think women are stupid creatures two of which can equal one man and stupid creatures who forget more easily than men.

Conclusion: Islam and the Qur'an do not subscribe to the modern western understanding of equality of the sexes. Its principles regarding the duties, responsibilities and rights of women and men are quite different from that pseudo-egalitarian understanding. If you are true Muslims, accept the Qur'an, the authentic sayings of the Prophet and in general Islam as they are. Stop reading the Qur'an in the light of the modern western mindset. On the contrary, look at the modern western mindset from a truly Quranic, Islamic point of view.

That is not why we do not accept Hadith as a form of guidance. It is because of the lack of following:
1) Authority from the Qur'an (cannot proceed from hereon anyway)
2) Authenticity

[Ugur]

The only way you can attack me is by accusing me of attacking the Qur'an. I am exposing your double standards. There is the same attitude toward women in the Qur'an as the one in some of the hadiths that you attack day and night. I have well proved it above. If you are disturbed by the fact that Allah does not subscribe to your westernized, anti-patriarchal, feministic viewpoint on the relationship between men and women, then blame nobody except yourself. Accept and believe in the Noble Qur'an as it is. Stop distorting it and making it into something that you can be pleased with. Be pleased with the Qur'anic message as it is, not by making it into something different, something more anti-patriarchal.

May Allah stregthen your iman and the iman of all of us and purify our hearts from the obstacles that prevent us from believing in whatever Allah and His Messenger (peace be unto him) has told us to believe in.

[Ugur]

It is depressing to find people like you who will even take shots at the Qur'an to win an argument, and even more depressing when the argument is to do with accepting female "circumcision".

Maybe I should not have had this debate with you in the female circumcision thread as that might lead you to think that my objection to you has anything to do with female circumcision. Female circumcsion is unknown in my country totally. From what I have read, the hadiths do not say that it is religiously necessary. It seems to be pure ancient custom which has nothing to do with the patriarchalism of hadiths or any other Islamic source.

[Ugur]

May Allah guide us! May Allah guide us all and forgive our sins. Aameen!

[Ugur]

But I agree that some fake hadiths espouse a male dominance that the Qur'an does not allow. I agree with you on that. But your accusations against the whole of hadith literature is baseless.

[Ugur]

And you could not say anything about the other two verses of the Qur'an. If they were hadiths you would reject them as being patriarchal, but since they are Qur'an, you are puzzled and disturrbed.

Other verses from the Qur'an:

Quote:
[In the sharing of the inheritance] if there are brothers and sisters, (they share), the male having twice the share of the female (4:176)

If this was not from the Qur'an but from the hadith, you would accuse the prophet (sa.w.s.) or the narrators of the hadith of being dirty patriarchalists violating Allah's commands and treating women as inferiors. But you can't do this and are very sorry that you can't do this because this is a clear verse of the Qur'an.

Quote:
And get two witnesses, out of your own men, and if there are not two men, then a man and two women, such as ye choose, for witnesses, so that if one of them errs, the other can remind her. (Sura 2:282)

If this verse was not Qur'an but hadith, you would accuse the narrators of the hadith of being patriarchalists who think women are stupid creatures two of which can equal one man and stupid creatures who forget more easily than men.

Conclusion: Islam and the Qur'an do not subscribe to the modern western understanding of equality of the sexes. Its principles regarding the duties, responsibilities and rights of women and men are quite different from that pseudo-egalitarian understanding. If you are true Muslims, accept the Qur'an, the authentic sayings of the Prophet and in general Islam as they are. Stop reading the Qur'an in the light of the modern western mindset. On the contrary, look at the modern western mindset from a truly Quranic, Islamic point of view.

[Ugur]

I feel really bad because some of my posts above were taken to be critical of the Qur'an. I seek Allah's forgiveness. I am reiterating my true point: Brothers like Ameen and AceOfHearts look at hadiths from a critical and western, modern point of view. What I meant is, when you look at hadiths from that kind of point of view, you should apply the same to the Qur'an and look at it from an anti-patriarchal, western, modern point of view too.

And when you do this, you will see that, considering the verses that I quoted above, you are going to find patriachalism even in the Qur'an. And non-Muslims do find such faults in the Qur'an.

So, let us not deceive ourselves. The modern western mindset does not allow us to reject hadith and accept the Qur'an. It causes us to reject both. So, the solution is to avoid using the modern mindset when examining the ahadith or the Qur'an, both of them. Our point of view and our thinking must be based on the Qur'an, and we must look at the modern world from a Quranic point of view. However, brothers like AceOfHearts and Ameen seem to be doing this the other way around.

If I have said anything wrong or detrimental to anyone's iman I seek the forgiveness of Allah and implore Him to guide such people whom I unintentionally misled or upset. I believe I have tried my best inshallah.

[MossadConspiracy]

you shouldnt tell lies during ramadan

[Ugur]

What lie are you talking about? The lie that Ugur was not going to post any more? Okay you are right, I can't live up to that statement. I've deleted that sentence.

[MossadConspiracy]

yes that was the lie i was referring to

ws