Female Circumcision in Egypt

[zzze]

assalamu alaykum

Ace, are askimam.com and islamonline.net good reference points....?

There ARE difference takes on female circumcision, some say the labia, others the prepuce. How can you say with such confidence that is Does affect a woman badly? Have you really studied cases of FGM? What Some scholars may say is recommended is nothing like those cases. You cannot say that by one carrying out female circumcision that one has no faith ...do u not believe in male circumcision?

[AceOfHearts]

Originally Posted by zzze

assalamu alaykum

Ace, are askimam.com and islamonline.net good reference points....?

There ARE difference takes on female circumcision, some say the labia, others the prepuce. How can you say with such confidence that is Does affect a woman badly? Have you really studied cases of FGM? What Some scholars may say is recommended is nothing like those cases. You cannot say that by one carrying out female circumcision that one has no faith ...do u not believe in male circumcision?

wasalaikum assalam zzze,

I pray you are well. Cutting ANYTHING off the female genitals is an evil act. It is an act clearly violating the Qur'an and the fact that Allah is the best of Creators.

Do you not believe when Allah says "The One who perfected everything He created" (32:7)? Do you think in Allah's design for the female, Allah has made a mistake and forgot to measure the various parts to the correct proportion?

Originally Posted by zzze

assalamu alaykum

How can you say with such confidence that is Does affect a woman badly? Have you really studied cases of FGM? What Some scholars may say is recommended is nothing like those cases.

Yes, I know enough to say with confidence. Lets not forget also the phsychological trauma of the ordeal as well the physical pain of having something cut away from ones body, especially from that region.

Lets for arguments sake, JUST for arguments sake assume it did not harm women, WHY do you need to go in and start cutting pieces off the genitals when it is Allah who has designed it perfectly? It is indeed an act of satan, just as he promised he would fool people into altering Allah's creation (4:119).

Originally Posted by zzze

Ace, are askimam.com and islamonline.net good reference points....?

Or you could try anywhere else if you like, same thing.

Originally Posted by zzze

What Some scholars may say is recommended is nothing like those cases.

Reccommended to change Allah's creation? Allah made a mistake? Who gave them this authority? No, this is an act of satan. It is his promise to lead people into doing this.

Originally Posted by zzze

...do u not believe in male circumcision?

No I dont. Allah has created the male and female body perfectly.

Interesting to note, the hadith that are cited for male circumcision does not differentiate between male and female. Given the hadiths advocating female "circumcision", there is no reason why one would assume the hadiths which are often quoted to refer to males only, do not refer to females too.

Was Prophet Ibrahim circumcised? Where is the evidence to this widely spread claim? It is certainly not in the Qur'an, and I dont think it is even in the Hadiths. But it is in the Bible. This is where the basis is. Then why is this 'argument' quickly put forward? And I think you will find that even the claim that Prophet Muhammad was circumcised can neither be validated by Hadith (let alone the Qur'an).

peace.

[Ugur]

Other violent acts of changing God's creation which are not commanded by the Qur'an include shaving such parts of the human body as the udnerarm and the facial hair. Because I was brainwashed with this anti-Quranic rhetoric and deception and act against God's nature about trimming the fingernails and shaving the various types of hair in human body, I used to suffer so much in the past. Stop all this false reilgious practices, you ignorant unwise enemies of the Quran and proponents of the hadiths.

[wheelworks]

Originally Posted by Ugur

Other violent acts of changing God's creation which are not commanded by the Qur'an include shaving such parts of the human body as the udnerarm and the facial hair. Because I was brainwashed with this anti-Quranic rhetoric and deception and act against God's nature about trimming the fingernails and shaving the various types of hair in human body, I used to suffer so much in the past. Stop all this false reilgious practices, you ignorant unwise enemies of the Quran and proponents of the hadiths.

Yea I know dude! I like Chocolate Cake too

[AceOfHearts]

Originally Posted by Ugur

Other violent acts of changing God's creation which are not commanded by the Qur'an include shaving such parts of the human body as the udnerarm and the facial hair. Because I was brainwashed with this anti-Quranic rhetoric and deception and act against God's nature about trimming the fingernails and shaving the various types of hair in human body, I used to suffer so much in the past. Stop all this false reilgious practices, you ignorant unwise enemies of the Quran and proponents of the hadiths.

You know it very well that you cannot compare hair or finger nails which are naturally designed by Allah to grow, be trimmed and clipped with a living part of the human body with blood circulation.

[Ugur]

Originally Posted by AceOfHearts

You know it very well that you cannot compare hair or finger nails which are naturally designed by Allah to grow, be trimmed and clipped with a living part of the human body with blood circulation.

No, what you are saying has no basis in the Qur'an. Show me which ayah of the Qur'an says trim the fingernails.

[ameen]

Originally Posted by Ugur

Show me which ayah of the Qur'an says trim the fingernails.

salam,

Maybe you should read the Qur'an yourself to find out?

[Variable]

Originally Posted by MossadConspiracy

by the way, the West is full of hypocrites because vaginaplasties and labiaplasties and other elective plastic surgeries to the vagina are now being offered by surgeons in LA and other places in order to make women have more "attractive" looking vaginas and it isnt labelled as female genital cutting or mutilation or circumcision and is not frowned upon at all. Its only barbaric when africans do it

c'mon dude, there's a huge difference there. I couldn't care less if some woman wants to drop six months of her income to have plastic surgery on her genitals. Weirded out yeh, but whatever. It's a completely different matter to have some kid dragged into the local 'surgeon' to have it done. For so many reasons.

I'm honestly surprised you said that.

[shadha]

God that is so inhumane and disgusting.

So what slicing is done to the males to insure that they don't stray before marriage?


shadha-

[Aryan_]

Originally Posted by Songbird

I'm having Iftar this weekend with an Egyptian family so I'll ask them.

Should make for great dinner conversation

[AceOfHearts]

Originally Posted by shadha

God that is so inhumane and disgusting.

So what slicing is done to the males to insure that they don't stray before marriage?


shadha-

Nah, they are actually concerned with increasing the pleasure for men, as indicated by the Hadith.

There was this one time in another Islamic Forum where a distressed sister posted not knowing what to do. She gave birth to a girl and her Sunni husband wanted to "circumcise" the baby girl in order to follow the Sunnah. Whats more, I believe it was a case in the west and not Africa. Ofcourse, her being the wife, what say did she have over the husband's will? She was very traumatised by the sound of her post.

I dont know what happened at the end, and I pray the husband was not able to carry out the circumcision on the poor newborn who could not do anything to defend herself.

[ChotooMotoo]

Actually, the only "sunnah" female circumcision that I've ever heard of, would be the kind where only a small part of the clitoral hood is removed, and NOTHING ELSE. That would actually INCREASE the ladies pleasure, since it would expose the clitoris more fully.

Female Circumcision was around long before Islam. When Islam came to those regions, they didn't change their practice, and didn't even adapt it to fit Islam. They just took the very very weak alowance of the practice, and put an Islamic spin on their existing cultural practice, which had nothing to do with increasing a womans pleasure.

Ace, if you read Hadiths, you would know that Islam (sunni and shia) actually really press the point of sexual equality between men and women. Women also have rights when it comes to sex, and those rights also have to be fulfilled. But then, since you don't follow Islam, I'm not surprised that you don't know this. Refer to the "Sex Therapist to the Muslim world" for more on that one.

[MossadConspiracy]

Originally Posted by Variable

c'mon dude, there's a huge difference there. I couldn't care less if some woman wants to drop six months of her income to have plastic surgery on her genitals. Weirded out yeh, but whatever. It's a completely different matter to have some kid dragged into the local 'surgeon' to have it done. For so many reasons.

I'm honestly surprised you said that.

the procedures arent exactly the same but they do have similarities and there is some overlap in the reasoning behind them. circumcised vaginas do fulfill a certain aesthetic in subsaharan africa where the process is usually more radical than in egypt. There is a very basic similarity in there, that women are having their vaginas altered to meet some standard that supposedly makes men happy. Remember that in the United States, and in most countries, a child's parents are the ones who consent for them to undergo medical procedures. It is common for parents to consent to radical (and some would say elective) surgeries on the genitals of their children. And of course theres the fact that most American men had their foreskins cut off in infancy without having any choice in the matter. Theres a requirement for the child to assent to some procedures, and i'll get back to that.

As for girls getting dragged, handcuffed to beds, shot with tasers, locked into iron maidens, and whatever other dramatic stuff we hear, most of that is just soap opera stuff that is played up to dramatize the practice and how evil it is. At least when it comes to Egypt. I only know a few (older) women who have been circumcised and they all did it willingly and werent duped into it or forced at sword or gunpoint or anything like that. The power of a family's expectations is very strong in a society like Egypt, and the power of tradition doesnt just influence men to want their daughters circumcised, it also influences girls to want to have the procedure done in order to fit into their village or whatever community they are in. Thats why the only way to get rid of the practice is to portray it negatively in modern Egyptian culture and convince enough Egyptians of this portrayal so village culture no longer expects it of young women.

Again, i'm not saying I like the practice, I am just acknowledging that its part of the culture, although its very rare among middle class urban people in the modern era. I am also pointing out a hypocrisy in the way two things that are quite similar are viewed. And as far as I'm concerned, the difference in how westerners see the two is based entirely on the fact that one procedure is done to middle aged rich white women, and the other is done in african villages on african village dwellers

[some_random_canadian]

The things men do to women...this just exemplifies the attitude of dominance that men have towards their subervient women. It's enough to make you sick.

96% of women? That's pretty ridiculous. There's no way it's that high. Perhaps the author meant to write that in a small obscure farming village composed of 13.5 people and a goat, 96% of those women have undergone genital mutilation. Egyptian women are very strong and opinionated. The ones I know at least.

Well I'm glad the article at least acknowledges the fact that it's Islamically wrong.

[albano]

I have read a lot of stuff about 'female genital mutilation' and not 'circumsition' in any case. I hate the fact that they always try to show like only muslims do it. This tradition used to be practised in western and other societies too. Is it islamic? Of course not becasue there is no religious base. The other stuff like benefits and damages is just different stuff that I don't even think it's supossed to be discussed here.