Female Circumcision in Egypt

[MossadConspiracy]

Originally Posted by Jamroll

If there's some kind of condition or medical need that necessitates it, fair enough. But it seems that it is more the norm than the exception in some places.

I know people try and pull out hadiths that supposedly support female circumcision, but the argument seems very weak to me. Removal of the part would totally or partially ruin a woman's sexlife, and that's not allowed Islamically as far as I'm aware.

Allahu Alim.

well Sheikh Gomaa banned it and Tantawi came out against it too

[Jamroll]

Originally Posted by MossadConspiracy

by the way, the West is full of hypocrites because vaginaplasties and labiaplasties and other elective plastic surgeries to the vagina are now being offered by surgeons in LA and other places in order to make women have more "attractive" looking vaginas and it isnt labelled as female genital cutting or mutilation or circumcision and is not frowned upon at all. Its only barbaric when africans do it

Yeah, you make a good point about Western hypocrisies. That still doesn't make female circumcision right though (i know you're not advocating it).

Also, when they refer to female circumcision in the African context, aren't they talking about the clitoral area? If so, isn't that quite different from a vaginaplasty?

[MossadConspiracy]

Originally Posted by Songbird

How can you speak on behalf for someone who's had it done?

If my friend says she still enjoys intimate relations with her husband, I'll take my friend's word for it. Like I said earlier, I know she didn't have the whole shabang.

i know but how would somebody be able to make a relative judgment about two experiences when theyve only had one? I'm not saying that somebody cant have any sensation at all with the procedure, its just greatly reduced because of the amount of sensitive tissue and nerve endings that are lost. Ask somebody who had the procedure done after she became sexually active, if such a person exists. Thats the only way you can get a meaningful answer about that question

ws

[WarriorAndWiseman]

Originally Posted by MossadConspiracy

by the way, the West is full of hypocrites because vaginaplasties and labiaplasties and other elective plastic surgeries to the vagina are now being offered by surgeons in LA and other places in order to make women have more "attractive" looking vaginas and it isnt labelled as female genital cutting or mutilation or circumcision and is not frowned upon at all. Its only barbaric when africans do it

I think it goes back to the procedure being carried out with consent or without knowledge of the consequences. I'm willing to wager that in most cases in Africa when the so called "operation" is done, hygiene is not of the utmost importance and the risk of infection is far greater.

[MossadConspiracy]

Originally Posted by Jamroll

Yeah, you make a good point about Western hypocrisies. That still doesn't make female circumcision right though (i know you're not advocating it).

Also, when they refer to female circumcision in the African context, aren't they talking about the clitoral area? If so, isn't that quite different from a vaginaplasty?

well there are versions where they cut off parts of the labia as well, which is basically what a labiaplasty is.

Obviously they arent the same exact procedures, but there are similarities, and nobody bats an eyelash because its aging rich white women in the west who are doing it rather than illiterate african peasants

[Songbird]

Originally Posted by Jamroll

Also, when they refer to female circumcision in the African context, aren't they talking about the clitoral area? If so, isn't that quite different from a vaginaplasty?

In the African context and from what some sisters have told me who fled from the horn of Africa, it involves total removal. That is, it's sliced off.

Ugh can we change the topic...

[MossadConspiracy]

Originally Posted by WarriorAndWiseman

I think it goes back to the procedure being carried out with consent or without knowledge of the consequences. I'm willing to wager that in most cases in Africa when the so called "operation" is done, hygiene is not of the utmost importance and the risk of infection is far greater.

yeah, its spreading HIV and all kinds of other infections and there is no consent requirement and so on. Its a barbaric practice

but even if it was done with consent in a sterile OR, some people would take issue with it because it treads on alot of feminist sensitivities and its a product of a culture that is alien to these people. Its not about infections and consent

[Jamroll]

Originally Posted by MossadConspiracy

i know but how would somebody be able to make a relative judgment about two experiences when theyve only had one? I'm not saying that somebody cant have any sensation at all with the procedure, its just greatly reduced because of the amount of sensitive tissue and nerve endings that are lost. Ask somebody who had the procedure done after she became sexually active, if such a person exists. Thats the only way you can get a meaningful answer about that question

ws

I know foreskin and the clitoris are not even comparable, but don't some people make the same kind of argument about circumcised male vs non-circumcised male? i.e. loss of sensation, etc.

[WarriorAndWiseman]

Originally Posted by MossadConspiracy

well there are versions where they cut off parts of the labia as well, which is basically what a labiaplasty is.

Obviously they arent the same exact procedures, but there are similarities, and nobody bats an eyelash because its aging rich white women in the west who are doing it rather than illiterate african peasants

I would say you should give the book a read. The one I mentioned in my previous post. The manner in which the illiterate African peasants carry out that procedure will stop you from drawing simillarities with a clinical operation (whether it's ethically correct or not)...

[MossadConspiracy]

I dont want to repeat myself, but like I said before, if they were doing this procedure in doctor's offices and operating rooms (which they do sometimes in Egypt, like in the clinic mentioned in the article), with informed consent, the practice would still be condemned by people who wouldnt care about the kind of vaginal plastic surgery thats being done

obviously having somebody chop off a little girls labia with a piece of broken glass or an unsterilized shaving razor isnt exactly a nice thing and isnt comparable with a plastic surgery OR. But even if both were done in the same conditions, the issues would still be there

[WarriorAndWiseman]

And I'd say the issues would be ethical in nature rather than religious. Just like sex change operations and breast implants. Not male cricumcisions though because that's definitely a religious issue.

But your arguing the case with the assumption that IF those African operations were carried out in a clinically correct manner which they're clearly not. So why draw comparisons with the latest craze in surgery in America with something that is blatantly barbaric. It's not the same thing and is clearly a human rights violation.

[zzze]

Asslamau alaykum

As far as i've studied, 96% is really too high...And as far as i've read...the islamic recommendation (strict shafi, i think) of female cicumcision has nothign to do with anythign that may affect a woman's personal life. Yes, prudish i am.

[nooni]

Originally Posted by Jamroll

I know people try and pull out hadiths that supposedly support female circumcision, but the argument seems very weak to me.

waits for ameen's or Aceofhearts reaction.

[sumiyia]

Originally Posted by MossadConspiracy

i know but how would somebody be able to make a relative judgment about two experiences when theyve only had one? I'm not saying that somebody cant have any sensation at all with the procedure, its just greatly reduced because of the amount of sensitive tissue and nerve endings that are lost. Ask somebody who had the procedure done after she became sexually active, if such a person exists. Thats the only way you can get a meaningful answer about that question

ws

exactly what i was going to say.

[AceOfHearts]

Originally Posted by Songbird

Basically it has no basis in Islam - it's a cultural practice and a barbaric one at that.

That's only wishful thinking. There good basis for it in your version of "Islam". Yes I agree, it is a barbaric practice.

Your own Scriptures advocate it, and your own ulamas. You have all been trying to hide it in the thread. But the truth must come out.

Female Circumcision, or mutilation is an approved "sunnah" derived from your own Hadith books, compiled over 600 years from word of mouth. See here for the fatwa:

Ask-Imam.com [5229] What is the Islamic ruling on female circumcision? Please explain in detail.

You are hypocrites of your own teachings.

Everything in Sunni Islam and the many invented sayings in Hadith are geared in favour of men. Lets look at this particular Hadith from your own "Sahih" Scripture, Abu Dawood:

"When you circumcise then do not cut severely, since that is better for her and more pleasing to the husband." (Reported by Abu Dawud and Al-Baihaqee and declared Hasan by Shaikh Al-Albani)

Whoever invented this Hadith (obviously a man) is only concerned for himself, for there is no benefit in reducing the God-given size of the female clitoris rather it reduces her pleasure, he is only concerned for himself: "preferred for the husband" (see here that it is the clitoris being referred to).

And that is just one hadith on this subject.

Indeed, the advocates are on the path of Satan. Satan has mislead mankind into cutting and mutilating Allah's perfect creation. In the Qur'an, Allah has informed us of Satan's intention to lead people into mutilating Allah's creation:

"(Satan said,) 'I will lead them astray and fill them with false hopes. I will command them to cut off cattle's ears. I will command them, and they will change Allah's creation''. Anyone who takes Satan as his protector in place of Allah has clearly lost everything." [Qur'an 4:119]

As we can see from the above Verse, Satan will command people to change Allah's creation. This is exactly what Satan has done to you, by convincing you to change what Allah has created in the female. Satan always leads man astray.

Allah tells us in the Qur'an, that He has created everything perfectly:

"And He created everything and measured it precisely." [Qur'an 25:2]

Or do you need to perfect the genitals your self by operating on it? Has Allah not made it perfect Himself like He TELLS US?

Again Allah tells us:

"The One who perfected everything He created and He began the creation of the human from mud." [Qur'an 32:7]

But your hadiths and ulamas teach you to cut and operate on the genitals to perfect Allah's creation, when Allah has already perfected it Himself. Allah says this explicitly in the Qur'an, do you have no faith? Do you think He left it for you to take a knife and start cutting to change what He already perfected?

Even after clear Verses are shown as proof, most of you will persist with your Hadiths.

"These are Allah's Revelations that We recite to you with truth. So, in which Hadith, after
Allah and His Revelations, do they believe?" [Qur’an 45:6]

Satan is successful in his promise:

"I will command them, and they will change Allah's creation''. [Qur'an 4:119]

Will you not turn away from following the Satan and follow the path shown clear by Allah in the Qur'an (alone)? You can show your dispproval of FGM like you all have, but until you shun your own source which advocate it, you are only a hypocrite to yourself and your ulamas.

There is no real reason why most of you are against FGM (you should be against it), your conscience are telling you it is wrong, but your hadith scholar are telling you it is right. You are in denial because you dont want to acknowledge this as being from your own "Sahih" Scriptures. Your own opinions have little basis or grounding.

“What is wrong with you, how do you judge? Or do you have another book which you study? In it, you can find whatever you wish?” [Qur’an 68:36-48]

This too, is a blessed Scripture which We have sent down – follow it and be conscious of your Lord, so that you may receive mercy. [Qur’an 6:155]

Dont just ignore what you have read in this post, being openly and intentfully negligent of the Qur'an will lead you to facing severe reprisals in the Hereafter.

Surely, the One who decreed the Qur'an to you will summon you to a predetermined appointment. Say: "My Lord is fully aware of who it is that brings the guidance, and who has gone astray." [Qur’an 28:85]