Is The Franklin morphing into the Washington ?!

[Faaris]

Originally Posted by MuslimZ

Epic failure of an explanation.

aight man ... no hard feelings.

[Timbit]

Originally Posted by hammadrizwan

HY.. hmm isn't he the same guy who said if you don't believe in the Holocaust you're giving Musilms a bad name?

That seems like something he'd say.
And yes, you are. Holocaust deniers are not very intelligent.


Wow, I've never heard anybody say anything against Shaykh Hamza before.

I've heard him talk at length about one topic, btw. He doesn't change topics every minute; he just brings in a whole lot of different perspectives/views to support an argument (not that there's anything wrong with having ADD). He is, MashaAllah, a very intelligent man and one of the finest scholars we have in the West. You're gonna need more of an argument against him if you want to accuse him of being fraudulent.

[IbnMardhiyah]

Originally Posted by Faaris

LOL ... You gone soft man. Shaykh Hamza Yusuf huh.
Believe me I'm being kind when I call him a 'fraud'.
Anyways, to each their own I guess ... don't want to sound like I'm disrespecting people's opinions.

I have absolutely no hesitation in affirming that most people mellow out as they grow older because they begin to understand the finer nuances of a broad spectrum of topics, and that the world isn't just black & white, its not just many shades of gray, but tinged with all the colors as well. I'm only 28 and my dad still considers me a raw kid who doesn't know the ABC's of life, and won't be mature until I'm 40; and despite my incredibly reserved demeanor [as opposed to five or seven years ago] I agree with him. I usually just stay quiet and observe.

Have you ever personally traveled with Shk Hamza Yusuf as a companion? Have you engaged in financial transactions with him directly? Have you stayed at his house for a day or two? How confident are you of the soundness of your accusation? Are you sure that you are standing on firm solid ground? How defensible is your position if it comes under intense scrutiny via examination by those that know him better than you do?

As for disrespecting someone's opinion, while I can't speak for others here ... I personally don't mind if you disagree with my opinion just as long as you back up your claims with cold hard facts. I have no problems getting into a civilized [or not] firefight over any topic. I have an awesome corporal firebat suit I bought off of a supply depot way out on Mar Sara and I'm dying to test it out.

Originally Posted by Faaris

... it's not so hard actually.

Bro, it is regrettable that you find "not so hard". The Sahabaa would hold their tongues and check their intentions twice before they said or did anything. And even then look at the incident when the Prophet told the Sahabaa not to insult one of their own who had fallen into the sin of drinking; he advised them to restrain themselves because their colleague was still one who loved God and His Messenger. I'm sure you don't believe that Shk. Hamza Yusuf has fallen into any of the kabaa'ir like that Sahaabi had.

I don't want to start pontificating, so I'll stop right there.

[Faaris]

appreciate the advice Ibn M ... though I disagree.
The debates on HY have been over-killed ... let's leave it at that.

[IbnMardhiyah]

Leaving aside the disagreement about Shk. Hamza Yusuf, do you apply the advice of Umar [ra] when it comes to judging the character of men? When someone asks you about the integrity of so-and-so, is your answer based on some substantial interaction with that person, or even a refined, contextual understanding of that person's behavior? Or are you following a certain crowd and just propagating popular misconceptions or stereotypes? Are you making your own independent conclusions, and disregarding what the pack is howling about?

Ultimately you don't answer to them, so just remember that.

We live in a world where character assassination has become very easy to engage in. In old times, it was known as slander and it was regarded as a major crime. And thus people often stayed silent if they had nothing good to say about any particular person or entity.

wasalamun alaikum

[MuslimZ]

Originally Posted by Faaris

appreciate the advice Ibn M ... though I disagree.
The debates on HY have been over-killed ... let's leave it at that.

You simply cannot go around bashing deeply-loved scholars like that and just say "let's leave it at that". You haven't provided any reasons for disagreeing with his views... you've only attacked his character and personality, which is the absolute worst way to go about expressing your displeasure with a person.

No way in hell can you just brush off statements like that.

[Faaris]

Originally Posted by MuslimZ

You simply cannot go around bashing deeply-loved scholars like that and just say "let's leave it at that". You haven't provided any reasons for disagreeing with his views... you've only attacked his character and personality, which is the absolute worst way to go about expressing your displeasure with a person.

No way in hell can you just brush off statements like that.

... khayr inshaa'Allah.
Muslims in the West got way better examples to follow instead of HY ... no one takes him seriously anymore.

[Timbit]

MuslimZ took the words from my mouth.
Lots of people take Shaykh Hamza seriously; you can't go around making unfounded statements about somebody's character like that.

[IbnMardhiyah]

Loving a scholar, or taking him seriously, has nothing to do with this. Lots of people also love and treat Kabbani seriously, yet he is a man held in contempt by many for reasons that are understandable and agreed upon by a vast majority.

Giving someone a fair shake, holistically examining their statements or actions against an established authority or base, and keeping emotions out of it and verified facts in, is what is needed.

I used to once cuss out Madeline Albright for her statement regarding the deaths of all those Iraqi children being "worth it" but she has since publicly apologized and taken those statements back so I have no legitimate reason to keep the beef on the basis of her previous statement.

[Ayooshi]

Asalamu Alaikum,

You must spread some reputation around before giving it to MuslimZ, Jaysh, and IbnM again.

Faaris, even if your opinion doesn't change of Shaykh Hamza Yusuf, I hope you internalize the naseeha' given to you here on the adaab in regards to people who have sacrificed their lives in a cause we barely pause to ponder on. InshaAllah khair.

Fi AmanAllah

[shadha]

Faaris: but he seems to me to be someone with attention deficit disorder as he must change topics every two minutes.

And how did you come to that? Him webbing his thoughts was one of the first things I noticed about him. He doesn't just present you with a web and says, 'It is because it is so Fear Allah'. No. Many people aren't content with that. They want to know why such and such is acceptable or why it is prohibited or why we do such and such. By webbing his information together, he is able to describe and make analogies that his audience can better understand and relate to. He has pretty much perfected this method.

But don't you worry, I'm not expecting you to understand that.


shadha-

[the_wrong_guy]

Originally Posted by Khairan

This is a great point and it really raises important issues regarding our relationship as lay individuals with religious scholars.

I will disagree with your implication here -- that it is wrong for us to interpret deen without being "qualified" -- on a few grounds.

First and foremost, I do not think the comparison between a scholar of religion and that of a generic "other expert" is entirely apt, nor do I think that we TRULY shy away from interpreting anything that we are not trained in.

Let's give two examples for comparison: a physicist and an english professor.

I would venture that the vast majority of people who are untrained in physics and science do not have strong opinions about issues in physics, nor would they try to argue a point with a physicist. However, many people -- "trained" or not -- DO have strong opinions about books and literature and will not acquiesce to the expertise of even an English PhD JUST because that person has more training. Just think back to college: who did people argue with more? Their science professors, or their humanities professors?

The differences between two fields such as this speak to the issue you raise with respect to religion. People are not routinely exposed to or understand the principles of fields such as physics, whereas literature is a much more common part of our lives. You don't have to take classes in English to have a sense of what is a good book, or what you think makes honest or compelling literature, though you probably will not be as qualified to discuss Shakespeare as someone who has studied his plays, his life, and the history of his time.

Similarly, there are many things within the field of religion that require study. Obviously, for Muslims the Qur'an is one of those things. The science of ahadith, the history of Islam, the principles behind interpretation and development of law, are all important issues without an understanding of which our abilities to think about Islam are limited. However, having faith, having a conscience, wrestling with issues of right and wrong are -- like reading, literature, and art -- everyday elements of the human condition. They are NOT the same as fields such as physics which most people don't know about, understand, or have any personal experience with.

Ultimately, there is a final and very significant difference here -- responsibility. Society does not look to a layman to apply principles of flight to engines and create airplanes, or to try and develop effective seatbelts or faster cars. We are not responsible for doing these things. However, ultimately we ARE responsible for our own actions in the eyes of God, and I do not believe it is reasonable or appropriate to cede that responsibility to anyone. We are in the end guided by our own conscience, and there have been many disasters in the world which might have been averted had people looked less to authority and more to the sense of right and wrong God instills in us.

I am emphasizing the role of responsibility and conscience not to imply that we don't need scholars and shouldn't look to them, but to say that in the end it is WE who must integrate what we learn and apply it to our own lives and teach our children and help our neighbors. We must take these principles that scholars study, and work with them in a way we never do with F=ma. THAT -- not arrogance or ignorance -- is what ought to impel us to discuss, debate, and understand these issues for ourselves.

We must always be wary of our own pride and make sincere intention to be guided by truth, facts, and what is moral, and to that end we should not think ourselves above those who have learned more than we. By the same token, however, we must also not think ourselves so far beneath them in knowledge and understanding that we dare not wonder if they could at times be wrong, and we right.

Dear Khairan,

Let me start off by stating that I find you to be among the most level-headed people on Islamica, and I generally agree to your POV. Perhaps I should have phrased my thoughts differently. I was aware of the limitations and silent implications of my statements, but I couldn't think of a better way of framing them. I wished to point out that many of us are mindful of where we take our knowledge from when it comes to fields such as economics and physics, but we're quite okay to take religious knowledge from unverified and unreliable sources. In many cases, this is reflective of an attitude that does not take religion as seriously as Allah commands us to. I wished to allude to the harmfulness of internalizing such attitude in my post, but it seems I was unsuccessful in articulating it clearly. In spite of what my earlier post seems to convey, I am in complete agreement with you in this matter (except for a few points in your post that are open to interpretation). JazakAllah Khayr for being awesome.

I agree that physics and literature affect our lives in different ways, and thus need to be treated differently. Similarly, I'm glad you recognize the depth and breadth of Islamic knowledge, and make a clear distinction between its various disciplines and their effect on our lives. In this context, you are correct in drawing a parallel between Aqidah and literature, and Fiqh and physics. I agree to your emphasis on responsibility and conscience, and your conclusion reflects the essence of the Islamic position regarding all issues: balance and moderation.

[Jaysh]

Originally Posted by IbnMardhiyah

Come back in 10 years and tell me if you still hold that opinion.

Haha, excellent and succinct post, bro Ibn M!

As our beloved Prophet [s] said, the cure for over-zealousness and foolishness is age. Having said that, let us be soft on the brother, since we've all gone through that stage. Nothing will correct it but age.

May Allah [swt] preserve Shaykh Hamza Yusuf.

Fi Aman Allah.

[xoxo]

only on islamica... could a thread on an article by imam anwar al awlaki in the business/economy section turn into a thread on bashing shaykh hamza yusuf.

[Faaris]

Originally Posted by xoxo

only on islamica... could a thread on an article by imam anwar al awlaki in the business/economy section turn into a thread on bashing shaykh hamza yusuf.

lol ......