[IbnMardhiyah]

Originally Posted by Salika

I agree with ibn except I don't think it's fair to call poor people "dumb."

Originally Posted by Jamroll

Yeah, I don't agree with calling poor people dumb either.

....

.....

..... where did I call poor people as "dumb" ?

[SaidAbdullahofDarfur]

Originally Posted by IbnMardhiyah

No, you're just deluded.

There are always options. Always. Suggesting ideas like running a farm or producing small goods shows how small and incompetent your thinking is, and the fact that you're really not even qualified or experienced enough to be discussing this matter - if you want to be taken seriously.

It would be suicide, or at least a really stupid business idea for most poor people in the world today to run a farm because there are much larger farms out there that have greater market share and bigger and faster logistics and distribution channels. The poor man starting up a farm would either be wasting any money he has already, or be placing himself in potentially irreversible and accumulative debt if he's borrowing any money to start one up.

Deluded, Why? Am I deluded because I care for people? Am I deluded because I value a life more than a dollar? Or am I deluded because I don't believe every word you say?

Where'd you get the farm from?
But since we're on that topic now, you don't find it appalling that a man can't make a living from his own work? Have you really detached yourself so far from humanity that you see no problem with a man not being able to live of his land with only what he needs?

I'm a human being, the only qualifications I need to talk about the heart is the ability to feel, no piece of paper can emulate that.

???
Can you please provide any textual evidence for these ABSURD and RIDICULOUS statements of yours?

I need textual evidence to prove that ALLAH(SWT) cares about people?

If I have $50 billion personal net worth, money made from legitimate business activities, and I pay my annual zakaat - lets say 2.5% for argument's sake - and I have $25 billion of my assets invested in financial vehicles giving me a 35% annualized ROI, then I'm growing my money and paying zakaat on top of the capital gains as well - in addition to my pre-existing assets, and presuming I'm also using my money to support schools and masaajid and communities, etc etc ... how could I not have that kind of money, Islamically? even practically? Is there some barrier? is it makrouh or haraam?

Do you have any idea how rich some of the Sahabaa used to be? During the time of the Khulafaa ar-Rashidoon, one of the Sahabaa came in on his own business caravan with like a thousand camels. The guy was very wealthy, his business was prospering, he was freaking LOADED. He had the opportunity to sell all his foodstuffs for five times the normal price due to market conditions in Madinah at that time. And he could have legitimately, Islamically, sold the goods at higher than their regular price because the merchants were willing to pay that much, of their own volition. And of course I'm sure you know the rest of the story.

You really. have. no. clue.

If were talking Islam being PRACTICED, lets keep it to the Ahlul Bayt...I'm not touching a "sahabaa" argument.
Oh, and for the record, Ali(AS) and Fatima(RA) lived in poverty, they had only what they needed and they were happy.

Yes. This coming from me. Someone who's way older than you and is in professional sales and presentation, and runs his own business as well.

Open your mind and realize I'm trying to teach you something. You really DO NOT have any worthwhile presentation skills. You need these skills if you want to make coherent, effective, and convincing presentations to others around you - be it for commercial or non-commercial reasons. Learn how to do an elevator pitch. It'll help you in nearly every aspect of your life.

You're trying to present a certain idea but you're failing at it, failing miserably. I'm not insulting you, I just don't have a habit of sugar-coating things and handling people with kiddie gloves and making them believe something that isn't true.

So like I said, go back and learn how to sell. And then come back, and try again.

And I absolutely demand that you give me Islamic textual evidence for the claims you made above about Islam.

This sound really messed up coming from you...

"Open my mind" "Presentation skills"....are you trying to come off as a hypocrite or just really conceited? In your Capitalist 'conditioning' did they ever teach you to grow inward before going outward? Or was your first lesson in relinquishing compassion?

Age means nothing if your will can't stand up to bias. To tell you the truth the only thing I see you're experiences amounting to is the bigot typing in defense of those who would work a man to death before carrying their own load.

Get off off your high horse man, you 'demand'?

I really don't think I need quranic proof that islam cares about people, more than money.
Read Surah Asr, that surah defines what makes people better or worse through he test of time, oh and it ain't money.

I would however love to see an ayah that describes the practices of industrial, imperial capitalism.

[IbnMardhiyah]

Basically, long story made short:

You really have no clue what you're talking about, and you've failed - time and time again - to provide any real evidence for your claims.

You said:

In Islam no ONE man Can be that rich.
If he treats people as HUMAN BEINGS and pays his zakat annually, theres just no way a man can be 50+ billion.

I asked you to provide proof for this statement - you gave absolutely zero proof.

Moving on, you said:

If were talking Islam being PRACTICED, lets keep it to the Ahlul Bayt...I'm not touching a "sahabaa" argument.

Yes, you limited it to Ahlul-Bayt because you realized that you were standing on some really thin ice - because the Sahabaa are our role models.
Many of them were businessmen.
You know full well that many of them were poor, and many were rich.
You know full well that the ones who were rich contributed massive financial backing for the rise and spread of Islam
You know full well that we've been told to spend our wealth and our lives in the way of Islam, and we JUST CAN'T DO THAT if we're all poor or middle-class.

And then, realizing that you worked yourself into a hole by trying to limit your argument to Ahlul-Bayt, you narrowed it down to Ali and Fatima. You very conveniently excluded Prophet Muhammad [saws] himself who was a very successful businessman before Islam, and you excluded his wife Khadijah who was a very rich businesswoman who contributed massive amounts of financial aid for the sake of Islam.

Why do you choose to persist upon indefensible stances and statements? You keep making up these straw-man arguments that have no basis, no foundation, NOTHING. I ask you for proof, you provide none. I tell you to go back and refine your statements so that you can present a strong, solid, polished stance on this issue and you consistently refuse to do so.

You don't even present a viable alternative.

All you do is rant and rave against people and practices you perceive to be wrong or unethical.

Carry on.

[zzze]

assalamu alaykum

heard of rizq, ibn?

[IbnMardhiyah]

Originally Posted by zzze

assalamu alaykum

heard of rizq, ibn?

What does rizq have to do with this?

[zzze]

assalamu alaykum

Is our rizq is ordained by Allah swt? Some are destined to be wealthy and some can die trying (lol). I know i don't have to tell say this to you, ibn, but feel free to correct me insha Allah.

A nice article on rizq: http://www.forpeoplewhothink.org/Topics/Rizq.html

[IbnMardhiyah]

Originally Posted by zzze

assalamu alaykum

Is our rizq is ordained by Allah swt? Some are destined to be wealthy and some can die trying (lol). I know i don't have to tell say this to you, ibn, but feel free to correct me insha Allah.

A nice article on rizq: http://www.forpeoplewhothink.org/Topics/Rizq.html

I deliberately asked you that question because people often just think its all pre-written, unchangeable qadar, and that whether they do or don't do anything, it won't make a difference.

There are two types of qadr - one that is unchangeable such as when you will die. The other is the type that can be changed with accepted dua, and subsequent effort.

In Islam, we were told to try and make the effort, and that Allah will provide results for your efforts. And we were also told that Allah is as His servant finds Him to be. So if you think and really act as if Allah is stingy and you're outta luck and blah blah blah so you might as well just not try, then oooooh hellll yeah - you're going to have a sucky life in general because your pessimism will just keep you at mediocrity ... or drive you towards failure.

But if you know the opposite, that Allah is ar-Razzaq and that the entire Universe is wide open for you, then you will find that His sunnah is such that doors open up for you everywhere, place and situations you had never imagined. All you had to do was to make the intention [hence the hadith - innal a3maalu bin'niyyaat] and that intention is what sets everything in motion, your thoughts become focused, which leads to your words, your words lead to your actions, and so on.

When it comes to money and finance, I think people just don't reflect on the fact that Allah consistently mentions "amwaalekum" before He mentions "anfusakum" - i.e He mentions using your wealth before your life. Islam is a practical religion, for a practical world. Its not for naive daydreamers who want to have some kind of socialist utopia, or who dream of closing the age-old gap between the rich and the poor. Islam recognizes that there are many challenges ever-present in life, the solutions for which require money, and sometimes lots of it.

In today's day and age, its more easier than ever before to take advantage of opportunities that God has given us. Islam was built on money, and many of the problems we have today can indeed be solved if the right people have the right amount of financial strength. In order to have that financial strength, they have to think big and see the larger picture. And to play in that big picture, you sometimes have to swim with the sharks and get dirty - without going into haraam of course.

Ultimately, as Muslims, our intent is to use our time in this world as most efficiently as we can, to secure a strong chance of gaining Allah's mercy and forgiveness on the Day we will need it most. I looked at myself and realized that on Judgment Day I'm going to wish I could go back into this life and do better, go farther, go higher, go deeper - all for the sake of Muslims and my aakhirah. And everyone of you will wish the same. So now's my one and only chance, and I really don't give a jack if little people view me as some cold heartless blood-drinking greedy capitalist.

[zzze]

Assalamu alaykum

I can't find the hadith which states ou rizq is ordained.

I agree that we have to work for it, somewhat like a raffle that you have to enter and then claim the prize. I don't believe there's anything wrong in reaching your potential and working hard to improve the ummrah financially, infact it's rewardable and every Muslim's duty.

I do, however, believe you're being very cold with respect to those who haven't been able to ''achieve'' financially (you mentioned something about ''the stupid mistakes of the poor.'') Some people do not have the capacity with which to earn a good living, or even a half-decent one, they can make the best from their situation but not necessarily succeed. Also, I wouldn't say that Allah swt was 'stingy' if certain individuals worked hard all their lives for nothing- for some it's a test and others a blessing.

Insha Allah khair, we're all accountable for our deeds and are only responsible for our own wealth and how we spend it.

[Zam]

"Contentment is a wealth that will never be consumed" - Rasulullah (sallahu alayhi wa salam)

subhanAllah you will find in Islam the virtues of both the financially rich and the poor, as long as they are satisfied and grateful for whatever Allah gave them. In hadith, you read that the poor will not have to go through a long accounting for all their wealth on the day of Judgment, while the rich will have a lot of good deeds piled up for them due to the good which they did with their wealth.

Imagine Hadhrat Uthman, when the Muhajirs first arrived in Madinah, all the Muslims of Madinah were dependent on the Jews for water who controlled all the wells and would charge high prices for it. Hadhrat Uthman went to one of the Jews to buy an entire well from them, and he was the only one who had enough money to afford it, and from then on he allowed everyone in Madinah to get water from that well for free. Imagine the reward for that, when we hear in another hadith that a women was forgiven all her sins just for providing water to a thirsty dog.

At the same time there were many Sahabi who used to completely devote themselves to learning and ibadah, such as Abu Hurayrah (radiallahu anhu), and thus were very poor and had no means to support themselves other than taking sadaqat. Because of his devotion to learning he was able to memorize and transmit so many hadith, and one can't imagine what the reward for that is like.

[afrakabob]

Originally Posted by TrentReznor858

why are islamicans so freaking irritable? it's obnoxious. especially when virtually every thread ultimately dissolves into bickering. i wonder if some people here need a bit more real-life social interaction

[wheelworks]

Originally Posted by afrakabob

. i wonder if some people here need a bit more real-life social interaction

The bickering over here lets us forget about the bickering in real life donchaknow

[ChotooMotoo]

Originally Posted by wheelworks

The bickering over here lets us forget about the bickering in real life donchaknow

that doesn't make any sense.

[wheelworks]

Originally Posted by ChotooMotoo

that doesn't make any sense.

That's cause you don't bicker in real life so you can't really relate (or else you don't bicker over here)