[Wolfn]

Originally Posted by IbnMardhiyah

The BMW 7-series is in the $150K range.

If Hyundai is going to try to create a competing model at 1/2 or even 1/3 that price, I won't even look at it.

The Bentley Flying Spur is $150,000. A base 7-series is like $60,000.

[IbnMardhiyah]

Originally Posted by sixpakistan

Around here ... in Mississauga?

Well, yeah you could consider Mississauga but I was referring to the GTA.

Mississauga is home to one of the largest-volume BMW dealers in Canada, btw. And when I was at Bell, BMW was part of my portfolio - my team and I used to be there all the time taking every single model they had for a test drive. Even for my carpool I get chauffeured everyday in a 328. Its totally considered an average car. You certainly wouldn't be making any kind of fashion or standards statement if you're driving around in a 3-series.

If you've ever worked in brand development - be it for graphical design, clothing, cars, whatever - you know that what the designers themselves say is fluff. What you really look for is what's on the street, what people are doing, because prevailing trends drive brand and fashion, not the other way around.

Toronto also happens to be one of the fashion capitals of North America - sorry I can't say the same for Minneapolis or St. Paul

Whether its dealing with clothes, cars, - whatever - big names all around the world look to our streets just as much as they look to the streets of NYC or London. I have my own sense of style when it comes to clothing. And it comes from watching the street and stuff I think looks nice, so only then do I walk into Harry Rosen and see if they have anything that fits the look I have, and if they don't I tell them to get off their asses and get it in their store, ASAP. The same goes for cars, its what people are doing with their own specific models that drives car design back at the drawing table. So when I say that BMW isn't flamboyant - do consider that what you consider to be flamboyant or what you ripped off some brochure or Wikipedia page - is just very passe over on this side of the fence.

There's something called exclusivity factor - people consider a possession to be flamboyant if it conspicuously stands out heads and shoulders above the crowd, and around these parts, even the higher end 5 and 7-series are de rigeur, but certainly not flamboyant. Right now I work for Dell and in our parking lot I've seen every model up to the 6-series, plenty of them. If you hop down to Bay St., the 7-series are as common as any other car.

Sorry to drop the bomb, but there's nothing flamboyant about mediocrity at all.

Why do people in Mississauga know Chris Bangle quite well? Why aren't any BMWs considered flamboyant there? A Z8 would be given many second and third looks on Rodeo Drive, but not in Mississauga, Ontario? How many Z8s actually exist in Mississauga?

BMWs, Lexus' and Mercedes are very common in Mississauga. Bratty little kids with rich daddies drive them around all the time, including many of my own Muslim friends. I live right next to a Mercedes dealership. [Mavis and Britannia] Out of all the GTA cities, Mississauga is very upscale, relative to Toronto, Etobicoke, North York, Vaughn, etc etc.

Maybe to all the way-too-cool, extremely wealthy people in Mississauga who drive Toyota Camrys, a Z8 just isn't up to snuff when it comes to making a statement. For the rest of the world, a $130k 2-seat roadster which made its public (outside of the automotive industry) debut in a James Bond film is considered to be on the "flashy" side.

Obviously there is a difference between a Z8 and the Lamborghini Reventon; but there's also an even greater gulf between the Z8 and a 528i.

I suggest you come visit Mississauga Road, or simply look it up on Google maps. Mansions there are so huge that owners have had to, in some cases, call in a construction crew to slice the place in half, rebuild the walls, and sell the other half as a 6,000 sf house all by itself. Or you could simply, behind the scenes, ask any of the many Islamicans who live in Mississauga.

Ask them about Mississauga Road specifically.

In regards to my standards, acknowledging the cars are flamboyant doesn't necessarily mean I like the cars - though the 6 series is undeniably gorgeous, and Bangle's designs have grown on me. FWIW Bangle was a big honcho in design at BMW long before he took everything over; a lot of people don't know that his designs have been influencing the BMW look for a while now. I will say that I do miss the Hofmeister style rears.

While I was handling BMW, the most common complaint I used to hear at dealerships was that many of the potential clientele missed the older style - for many it was a very nuanced version that they were looking for and Bangle's newer designs were a turn-off for many.

On top of all that, the reason why I'd only go for the 7-series is because the rest of the BMW line sucks big time, when it comes to the practical realities of driving an upscale car - the best value for your money is a Lexus.

No it isn't. Even a fully optioned long wheelbase version of the 760 won't cost you more than $140k - less if you get a decent deal. The 750 is much cheaper - with all the options one would actually want on the car, you could get it for about $90k (starts at $70k).

Originally Posted by Wolfn

The Bentley Flying Spur is $150,000. A base 7-series is like $60,000.

Nice try boys.

The MSRP for a 760 Li is about $120K, with average options you get to $150, and for a really tricked out one, you approach $190K.

[Wolfn]

Originally Posted by IbnMardhiyah

Nice try boys.

The MSRP for a 760 Li is about $120K, with average options you get to $150, and for a really tricked out one, you approach $190K.

The 760 Li is the top of the line, max-engine, extended wheelbase version. Yes, that will be expensive. A base 7-Series (745i?) is around $70,000.

[IbnMardhiyah]

Originally Posted by Wolfn

The 760 Li is the top of the line, max-engine, extended wheelbase version. Yes, that will be expensive. A base 7-Series (745i?) is around $70,000.

There are 7-series available above the 760 btw, but yeah I was referring to the 760. The 745 no longer exists, its been replaced by the 750s, and their absolute base MSRP is about $75K.

Most people that I know, when they mention the 7-series, they're referring to the 760s - and the commensurate budget for those is $100K+, always. You don't go looking for a 760 if you don't have the capacity to pay / lease at that level.

[Wolfn]

Originally Posted by IbnMardhiyah

There are 7-series available above the 760 btw, but yeah I was referring to the 760. The 745 no longer exists, its been replaced by the 750s, and their absolute base MSRP is about $75K.

Most people that I know, when they mention the 7-series, they're referring to the 760s - and the commensurate budget for those is $100K+, always. You don't go looking for a 760 if you don't have the capacity to pay / lease at that level.

While we are on the subject of the 7-Series, Rolls Royce is building a "baby Phantom" on the platform of the next generation 7-Series. Expect to see this new Rolls Royce by 2010. It'll apparently cost about $150,000.

[sixpakistan]

Originally Posted by IbnMardhiyah

Well, yeah you could consider Mississauga but I was referring to the GTA.

So why do people in Mississauga know Chris Bangle "real well?"

Originally Posted by IbnMardhiyah

Mississauga is home to one of the largest-volume BMW dealers in Canada, btw.

Great. Addis Ababa is home to the fattest man in Ethiopia.

Originally Posted by IbnMardhiyah

And when I was at Bell, BMW was part of my portfolio - my team and I used to be there all the time taking every single model they had for a test drive.

Everyone's impressed, I'm sure.

Originally Posted by IbnMardhiyah

Even for my carpool I get chauffeured everyday in a 328. Its totally considered an average car.

You define what is "average" based on what other people perceive as "average." This is because your concern about what other people think far outweighs your knowledge of cars. Thus, you declare a 328 as "average" because it's seen regularly and it's the cheapest model of the BMW line.

FWIW, by the standards of automotive engineering and driving experience, the 328 is not at all "average." A 328i coupe with a 6 speed manual is a fun, engaging, and quality vehicle.

Originally Posted by IbnMardhiyah

You certainly wouldn't be making any kind of fashion or standards statement if you're driving around in a 3-series.

The fact that you blanket all 3 series together again illustrates your lack of knowledge of cars and BMWs beyond what you perceive as a "rich person's car."

The 328 is BMW's entry level model as of 2007, replacing the 330i. It has the old 330i engine minus a few intake modifications to detune it to 230hp. You can get into a basic one for about 40k. These are cars people might buy for fashion and standards statements, because it's the cheapest statement you can make. Most people who seek to brag about wealth don't actually have very much money, so many people buy one because it's the cheapest way to have the roundel badge.

The 335, on the other hand, is a whole different animal. It has a 300hp twin turbo N54 & comes standard with most of the 328s options. It's the exact same car as the 535i, except smaller and sportier (tuned suspension, second oil cooler, manual transmission standard, available Dinan flash). Nobody is buying a car like that to make a fashion statement, because if you can afford this car and what you want is a status/fashion statement, you can buy a 5 series to impress the world with for similar money. Most of the world knows nothing about cars & automatically assumes 5 series > 3 series.. it's a higher number, right?

This recalls your "I would only buy a 7 series" statement, which is a running joke amongst BMW enthusiasts, because it's the #1 thing that people who are clueless about BMWs/cars in general (and who certainly couldn't afford a 7 series) love to say.

Originally Posted by IbnMardhiyah

If you've ever worked in brand development - be it for graphical design, clothing, cars, whatever - you know that what the designers themselves say is fluff. What you really look for is what's on the street, what people are doing, because prevailing trends drive brand and fashion, not the other way around.

Toronto also happens to be one of the fashion capitals of North America - sorry I can't say the same for Minneapolis or St. Paul

Whether its dealing with clothes, cars, - whatever - big names all around the world look to our streets just as much as they look to the streets of NYC or London. I have my own sense of style when it comes to clothing. And it comes from watching the street and stuff I think looks nice, so only then do I walk into Harry Rosen and see if they have anything that fits the look I have, and if they don't I tell them to get off their asses and get it in their store, ASAP. The same goes for cars, its what people are doing with their own specific models that drives car design back at the drawing table.

That's nice. Stick to talking about fashion & nail polish and such instead of cars, since you know much about the former and zero about the latter. Your approach to machines as fashion statements and the way you manage to segue everything into clothes and fashion is amusing, but gay.

Originally Posted by IbnMardhiyah

So when I say that BMW isn't flamboyant - do consider that what you consider to be flamboyant or what you ripped off some brochure or Wikipedia page - is just very passe over on this side of the fence.

Again, the Z8 is not comparable to say, a 528i. This is sort of a useless conversation since before this conversation you probably weren't able to distinguish between a Z3 and a Z8. My knowledge doesn't come from brochures and Wikipedia pages, it comes from real-world experience and knowledge of cars/mechanicals/automotive engineering.

Originally Posted by IbnMardhiyah

There's something called exclusivity factor - people consider a possession to be flamboyant if it conspicuously stands out heads and shoulders above the crowd, and

You're making me laugh. You realize that only 6000 Z8s were ever built, right? I'd guess one or two of them (max) are in Mississauga, Ontario.

Originally Posted by IbnMardhiyah

around these parts, even the higher end 5 and 7-series are de rigeur, but

Mississauga
Malibu
Monaco

one of these is not like the other except in the minds of those who live in mississauga and are suffering from delusions of grandeur

(the phrase is "de rigueur" btw.. if you're gonna use snobbish/pretentious terms in the course of trying your best to sound snobbish/pretentious, at least spell them right)

Originally Posted by IbnMardhiyah

certainly not flamboyant. Right now I work for Dell and in our parking lot I've seen every model up to the 6-series, plenty of them. If you hop down to Bay St., the 7-series are as common as any other car.

Are there also a lot of Toyota Camrys?

I was in Toronto a few months ago & stayed on Richmond St, in the heart of the city. The few BMWs I saw were 328s and the older E65s/E66s. I didn't see any new 335s, 535s, 550s, or 6s.

Originally Posted by IbnMardhiyah

Sorry to drop the bomb, but there's nothing flamboyant about mediocrity at all.

Mediocre = old Japanese cars, like the one you drive. Nobody who isn't suffering from serious delusions of grandeur considers a $130k roadster or a $100k coupe to be "mediocre," especially not if they know anything about or have driven those particular cars.

Originally Posted by IbnMardhiyah

BMWs, Lexus' and Mercedes are very common in Mississauga. Bratty little kids with rich daddies drive them around all the time, including many of my own Muslim friends. I live right next to a Mercedes dealership. [Mavis and Britannia] Out of all the GTA cities, Mississauga is very upscale, relative to Toronto, Etobicoke, North York, Vaughn, etc etc.

I suggest you come visit Mississauga Road, or simply look it up on Google maps. Mansions there are so huge that owners have had to, in some cases, call in a construction crew to slice the place in half, rebuild the walls, and sell the other half as a 6,000 sf house all by itself. Or you could simply, behind the scenes, ask any of the many Islamicans who live in Mississauga.


Ask them about Mississauga Road specifically.

I've been to Mississauga. It's a dump.

It's kind of amusing you're going on and on about how BMWs are mediocre in terms of cars, but because you live in Mississauga, Mississauga is a cosmopolitan paradise full of billionaires. Again, a perspective that anyone not suffering from serious delusions of grandeur would find laughable.

Originally Posted by IbnMardhiyah

While I was handling BMW, the most common complaint I used to hear at dealerships was that many of the potential clientele missed the older style - for many it was a very nuanced version that they were looking for and Bangle's newer designs were a turn-off for many.

That's nice. Bangle started designing with the Z roadsters in the 90s, and started leading design efforts across the board in 2002. Most people have gotten over the designs by now (btw his pre-E66 7 effort on the 745 was amazing).

[sixpakistan]

Originally Posted by IbnMardhiyah

On top of all that, the reason why I'd only go for the 7-series is because the rest of the BMW line sucks big time, when it comes to the practical realities of driving an upscale car - the best value for your money is a Lexus.

Again, like most automotive cluebags, you associate BMW with "luxury" and "status" and think any BMW beneath a 7 series must suck. To you, cars have two categories: upscale and not-upscale.

The BMW 3 series are cars created in the Sports / Grand Touring tradition (with the M3 being more geared toward sport, the 328i geared more touring, and the 335i straddling both worlds). Yes, it's more expensive than most cars in this category, but that's because it's quality.

Lexus has cars in this category, and they simply do not compare. They are Japanese BMW knockoffs that fail to live up to the sporting tradition & do not provide any sense of driver<->car synergy. Nobody who knows anything about cars would ever compare the relatively anemic Lexus IS cars (with nothing but a push-button slushbox available, of course) to a BMW 335i.

If the BMW line sucked, Infiniti (G35/37), Lexus (IS), and Mercedes Benz (C class) wouldn't have been playing catch-up to them for the past 20 years, while still losing every comparison test conducted by every trade magazine.

The C class is a nice car from a suburban housewife perspective (comfortable, nice amenities), crap from a sporting/driving perspective. Since there's really nothing great about it, it mostly tends to attract people who want a Benz badge cheap.

The Infiniti G35/G37 is a nice car, but very few people driving that car wouldn't trade it in a heartbeat for a 335i if they could afford it. It's just not engineered to the same standards.

The fact that some people who are completely ignorant about the car industry seek BMWs - or if they can't afford one, seek to denigrate BMWs - for the sake of status, doesn't change reality.

As for practical, all of the BMWs outside of M & Z cars are practical as daily drivers. Even the M cars outside of the M coupe would be fine as daily drivers, assuming they weren't equipped with SMG.

Originally Posted by IbnMardhiyah

Nice try boys.

The MSRP for a 760 Li is about $120K, with average options you get to $150, and for a really tricked out one, you approach $190K.

From BMW USA's website, with every possible option/package and the most expensive accessories. And that's at MSRP and includes the destination charge. Stick to rattling off the prices of designer makeup or something.

Originally Posted by IbnMardhiyah

There are 7-series available above the 760 btw, but yeah I was referring to the 760. The 745 no longer exists, its been replaced by the 750s, and their absolute base MSRP is about $75K.

There are no 7 series available "above the 760." This is simply wrong. You might be thinking of the Alpina B7 I mentioned to you, which is Alpina's (BMW partner) tuned version of the short-wheelbase 750/745 (no longer made by BMW).

If you were referring to the 760, you should have specified the 760 (though your statement would still be 100% incorrect), but the reality is more probably that prior to checking up on it, you thought the statement that "the 7 series is in the 150k range" was correct as read (since you don't know what you're talking about).

Originally Posted by IbnMardhiyah

Most people that I know, when they mention the 7-series, they're referring to the 760s - and the commensurate budget for those is $100K+, always. You don't go looking for a 760 if you don't have the capacity to pay / lease at that level.

I'm sure you know scores of people who are knowledgeable about BMWs as you are, and refer to the 760 as the "7 series." Most of them are probably Mississauga billionaires who would look down their nose and pooh-pooh a limited production BMW Z8 as "common."

[sixpakistan]

Originally Posted by Wolfn

While we are on the subject of the 7-Series, Rolls Royce is building a "baby Phantom" on the platform of the next generation 7-Series. Expect to see this new Rolls Royce by 2010. It'll apparently cost about $150,000.

Hah, I'm guessing IbnManicure isn't aware that BMW owns Rolls Royce

[IbnMardhiyah]

*yawn*

So basically, you tried saving face but you fell flat as usual.

Ask anyone who lives in the GTA area which of the cities is most upscale and they'll tell you Mississauga and Oakvile. Making retarded statements like "Mississauga is a dump" just makes you look like a retard.

Rattling off numbers and specs merely shows me that you can memorize a brochure, That's not how class is made. Chris Bangle doesn't define what flamboyant is. The people who pay his salary do.

When I said the Lexus tops Mercedes and BMWs, I was referring to what the insurance industry knows about those three brands, not what they or you think.

Originally Posted by sixpakistan

Hah, I'm guessing IbnManicure isn't aware that BMW owns Rolls Royce

I'm aware of that.

Everything else - useless.

Have a nice day.

[Anderson]

Are IbnM and Sixpak having another fake flame war? Nice try guys, you won't get us this time.

[sixpakistan]

Originally Posted by IbnMardhiyah

*yawn*

So basically, you tried saving face but you fell flat as usual.

Ask anyone who lives in the GTA area which of the cities is most upscale and they'll tell you Mississauga and Oakvile.

I don't need to ask anyone. I've been to Mississauga. It's a dump. Toronto's a nice city, but I don't know a single person who actually lives in Toronto that would associate themselves with Mississauga. They look down on people who live in Mississauga.

To them, living in Mississauga and claiming to be from Toronto is like living in Jersey City and claiming to be from NYC.

As the Torontoist said in their review of the Hidden Cameras' album:

The band, luckily, shares a view of Mississauga that many of Toronto's residents seem to hold: Mississauga - especially living there - kinda sucks. Take, for example, the lyrics from the ultra-resentful track "Mississauga Goddam" off the album of the same name: "Mississauga skyline / Filled with the shadows of the power lines / With the garbage and refuse we'll build a mountain to the moon / on top of Mississauga goddam."

Keep in mind the Hidden Cameras are probably the only thing the entire world outside of Mississauga knows about Mississauga.

Originally Posted by IbnMardhiyah

Making retarded statements like "Mississauga is a dump" just makes you look like a retard.

Pretending to know anything about cars makes you look like a retard.

Originally Posted by IbnMardhiyah

Rattling off numbers and specs merely shows me that you can memorize a brochure,

Nice attempt at trivializing the fact that you were 100% wrong.

Originally Posted by IbnMardhiyah

That's not how class is made. Chris Bangle doesn't define what flamboyant is. The people who pay his salary do.

You're confusing class and status.

Originally Posted by IbnMardhiyah

When I said the Lexus tops Mercedes and BMWs, I was referring to what the insurance industry knows about those three brands, not what they or you think.

Lexus is more reliable than a BMW or a Benz because it's a Toyota chassis and platform; Toyota produces exponentially more cars than BMW or Mercedes-Benz does, and has significantly less complex internals and electronics. Engineering 101. It's not a coincidence that a Lexus has the exact same number of problems per 100 vehicles as a Toyota.

Originally Posted by IbnMardhiyah

I'll be tucking my tail between my legs and running off now.

fixed