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Originally Posted by Jamroll
No, I don't think it's fair of you to say that what I meant by "however long it make take", is a nice way of saying "however many Iraqis have to die".
I meant "however long it may take". It's not a must for people to die, in order for Iraqis to fulfil the requirement "however long it may take".
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Its the same, because Iraqis are currently dying. And anything that prolongs the conflict in Iraq means that Iraqis will continue to die. The presence of foreign troops in Iraq may be prolonging the conflict, but they arent the only factor doing so. There are many other ones. In fact, a variety of proposals have been put forward that would end the violence in Iraq but they always fail because one side or another kills them because they are committed to continue the fight for "however long it may take" for them to win it, regardless of how many of their own people have to die in order to make that happen.
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Originally Posted by Jamroll
Also, America would not be the great nation it is today, if its men and women had not fought for their freedom from the shackles of British imperialism. As you seem to be claiming to speak from the humanitarian perspective, would it have been more humanitarian for the Americans to be ruled and bled economically and otherwise by the British, or was it more humanitarian for them to have fought for their freedom and become a free people governing themselves?
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You raise a good point. Looking at it strictly from the perspective of harm to human beings and their livelihoods and so on, I think in the immediate, short, and intermediate term the American revolution probably would have been easily predicted to lead to more death and destruction and harm to Americans than continuing to live under British imperialism. I dont know which outcome I would have supported if I had been alive back then. But if I cared about the American colonists and wanted the least harm to come to them then theres a good chance I would have wanted to avoid war. Its also impossible to speculate on how things would have turned out over a history of over 200 years if the American revolution had never happened. Who knows whether things would have ended up better or worse for Americans as a whole, this isnt something that can be predicted.
Sometimes, however, its clear that revolution really will almost certainly create alot more benefit for alot more people than the amount of harm it generates. Look at the South African revolt against apartheid or the first Palestinian intifada as good examples (and there are various others)
Also, its important to gain a perspective on this point you are making. Yes, America is awesome. The USA sent men to the moon and is in control of the world economy (for now) and blew up Japan with atom bombs and so on, and all of this came out of the founding of this nation through the American revolution. But for every American revolution in this world, theres a soviet revolution, and a cambodian revolution, and a Korean revolution, and a Cuban revolution, and an Egyptian revolution, and a Hutu revolt and so on. In fact, I'd probably say that history has shown that violent explosive revolutions and revolts tend to be incredibly destructive to societies much more often than they are beneficial and productive. And judging by the fact that Iraq is currently locked in inter-Iraqi ethnic and sectarian mass murder that has claimed tens of thousands of lives and displaced millions, and that the Iraqi national flag is forbidden from being flown over public buildings in several Iraqi provinces, and that there are at least 4 independent Iraqi military organizations operating within Iraq, its much more likely that if Iraq is just allowed to continue along its present course (with or without occupation) it will end up much more like Yugoslavia or Cambodia than like the United States or Venezuela or even France
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