[jinnzaman]

Originally Posted by shadha

Correction, objected for them to be implemented in the West at this time- especially since you are already more than free to implement many of them into your lifestyle.

I may be mistaken, but I don't recall ever debating applying the Shari'ah in any Western non-Muslim state.

Firstly, this was not the first time within two days he tried to call me out for not being apart of the Ummah, "us", and being one of them. Would you like me to link you to his posts?

I haven't been on Islamica as often as I usually am because of exams so I wasn't aware of those comments. If he's been haranguing you, then you have every right to state your grievance against him, however, I couldn't help but notice a tint of disdain in your post regarding those who performed hijra overseas.

Secondly, which Hadiths would make me not want to live in an Islamic environment? Is there a Hadith about women not being allowed to drive? No. Is there a Hadith permitting you to beat your women? No. Is there a Hadith forbidding women to be apart and active contributors to society and their Masjid community? No. Is there a Hadith forbidding the education of women? No. So where would I have a problem? I don't have to agree with every single Hadith in order to feel "comfortable" and "fit in" with an Islamic environment. That is absolutely ridiculous to try to claim.

There are hadeeth that discuss gender segregation, the three pronouncements for talaq, that limit the movement of women in society, etc.

However, I was also referring more to the criminal aspects of Islamic law such as stoning, lashing, amputation not to mention disparate treatment on gender issues such as inheritance, witnessing, all of which are established either in the Qur'an or through mutawattir narrations. While rejecting a isolated or singular narrations may be merely sinful and not disbelief, rejecting narrations with multiple chains of transmission that rise to a sufficient level of probity is kufr. Based on our previous discussions, you seemed to have problems with the things I highlighted in the first sentence of this paragraph.

As I have said from the start, I don't have a problem with Islamic societies, I have a problem with societies who practice HISlam and front like it's the real thing. So again, no I would not have a problem living an a very Islamic environment- if it is indeed Islamic. Saudi, quite frankly, is not "very Islamic" by any stretch of the imagination.


shadha-

The problem with your charge of patriarchy being present in traditional interpretations is that it presumes its own self-truths, which is essentially a circular argument. In order for you to show that the "egalitarian" (read: Western) understanding of Islam that you posit is true, you have to bring an interpretation that has historical continuity from the time of the Prophet (sallahu alayhi wa sallam) up until today. If you cannot, then this shows that the basis of your reasoning isn't from Islam or Herslam, but from a foreign source which is an invalid source in scriptural interpretation. In terms of Saudiyyah being Islamic or not, thats debateable, but it is formal state apparatus is more Islamic than other Muslim states and its implementation of the Shari'ah qualifies it as an Islamic form of government. Whether it is a good Islamic government or a bad one is a qualitative issue.