[sixpakistan]

Originally Posted by Bruinrab

Not really. But then logical arguments don't always have just one possible outcome.

I said logistic, not logical

Originally Posted by Bruinrab

Are we talking about soldiers or jingoists here? I'm sorry, I thought it was the former.

The discussion's been expanded as a result of the argument taking place.

Originally Posted by Bruinrab

Fair enough. How about the Milgram experiments? Normal, everyday people were willing to do something that one could reasonably believe was killing someone - a person that they had already met and gotten to know a little, not an anonymous "face in the crowd". But, since they were being assured, and bullied in some cases, by an authority figure, most continued. And this was not in a setting where they perceived some threat from their "opponent". They were hurting someone (or believed they were) simply because an authority figure told them to.

OK, so some of them may be evil. Just as some Muslims may be evil. However, the vast majority aren't. Just like the vast majority of Muslims aren't.

My point is that it doesn't really matter if they're "evil" by your arbitrary definition below or not. I don't think the people who suffer at their hands really care if they're "evil" or not. It doesn't matter in the least. What matters is not their internal nature but what the effect of their actions is, and whether or not it is morally reprehensible to join or support an organization with such goals. It should be added that most people in the military at the ground level aren't cringing or protesting over their own actions (a la Milgram). Quite the opposite - they're enthusiastic about it. 80% of the military voted for GWB.. and that figure was probably much higher amongst enlisted men on the ground, the ones who actually see combat. Hoo-rah!!!

Check this out - Amazon.com: Imperial Grunts: The American Military on the Ground: Robert D. Kaplan: Books

Originally Posted by Bruinrab

Saying that every US soldier is evil is just as retarded as Ann Coulter saying "We should invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity."

Again, you're comparing a military institution to entire peoples and cultures. That makes no sense.

Do you think everyone in al-Qaeda is evil?

Originally Posted by Bruinrab

Well, to me, evil is masterminding destruction or suffering for one's own gain or pleasure. Malicious leaders are evil. Their foot soldiers aren't necessarily evil - though there may be evil psychopaths amongst them who are capable of inciting evil acts on the ground (cf. Casualties of War, 1989). I'm not justifying immoral behavior. I'm just saying that it's entirely possible for normal people to commit horrific acts without being inherently evil.

OK. So what do you think should be done with such people?

(BTW, as I pointed out already, a large # of US soldiers wouldn't even have the Nuremberg defense to fall back on)

Originally Posted by ShotgunMessiah

Not only do I deny that, I flat out reject the very notion. In fact, many highly intelligent individuals join the Army with the intent to learn what they can in the serivce, take their classes (paid for by the Army) and maybe even get into better shape while they serve their time out.

I've met a considerable number of mil & ex-mil types and the very few who I considered "intelligent" (all ex mil, ex DOD) pretty much hated the military and what it stood for. It's an open secret that post WW2, the vast majority of people who join the Armed Forces in the US aren't "the best and brightest," as our own former Secretary of Defense, Robert McNamara, put it.

Originally Posted by ShotgunMessiah

Also, after your service is up, people who have served in the Army get better interest rates on their loans (which they have an easier time getting than someone who has not served), better payments, residuals, and if they qualify they can continue having their classes paid for by the Army if they stay in the field they were in. Doesn't sound idiotic to me.

I dunno. The idea of joining an organization which makes a habit of engaging in death and destruction on its privileged establishment's enemies to get a good rate on a loan seems pretty dumb to me.