[zeen]

Originally Posted by AliFazel

No accusation to you -- Its a general speech -- those who claim they know what in the hearts of others and come out accusing others are liars - zalimeen.

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Although this thread is about Tawasul --- And I'd prefer to discuss tawasul only - this side issue has cropped up. Its natural considering the circumstance and the past hostilities between the two factions.

Lets stick to HARD LOGIC.

Every action depends on Intention .

A person prays, with intention to worship Allah ----OR ---- With intention, to show others that he is pious.
A person gives sadka, with intention to please Allah ---- OR ---- with intention, to show others that he is generous.

The reward or punishment depends on the intention - not on the act. ---- <RIGHT>

Not right. Your touching a gray area. We know that all actions are judged by intentions, however, we also know that the act has to be in accordance with the Shariah to have it accepted, regardless of intention. For instance, can I choose to pray 3 rakah for tahiyat-ul-masjid (instead of the 2 rakahs sunnah) for the sake of 'increasing' reward; indeed a good intention? Everyone will respond with 'of course not'. Thus, that is a simple proof for intentions not being sufficient to make an act right or praiseworthy.

So when a person knows very well that Allah (SWT) controls all affair - and he goes to grave of Prophet (SAWWS), and says "Ya Rasool-il-lah Madad - a3na maglub"
or he goes to the grave of Ali-ibn abi talib and say, "Ya Ali madad - a3na maghlub".

LOGIC dictated that he is saying O' Rusool-il-lah help me, intercede for me before Allah.

If I needed help on this forum and I was to say 'Ya Ali Fazel Help me' logically it'd mean that I'm calling you to help and not the moderator of the forum.

Further, Prophets and Shuhadah are indeed alive in their graves but they are not alive in the worldly sense. Their lives are of the barzakh.

They can NOT hear you at all whether you are standing infront of their graves or elsewhere.

Mostly, these people who go to Prophet (SAWWS) consider themselves as sinners and they believe that Allah will not accept their pleas. BUT, if they go through Prophet (SAW) there is a better chances of getting their pleas heard.

How can any kadhi, sheik, mufti, mullah, hafiz ul qur'an, or what ever big titles they hold, come out and tell us that they know what is in the hearts of these people?

You see, the problem is not that you make Tawassul rather, the problem is that you make tawassul through those that have passed away. You ascribe supernatural powers to the Prophet saw and Ali ra.

You believe that they become 'ALL HEARING' and 'ALL KNOWLEDGEABLE' after they die and this is Shirk because these attributes belong to Allah alone. By ascribing these exclusive attributes to the creation you are doing wrong to the creator.

How can they say, that these people are expecting prophet (SAWWS) or Ali (A) to grant them their wish, bypassing Allah (SWT) --- How can they claim to know what's there in the hearts of these people?

He is a liar who says he can read the hearts of others.
And He who accuses others of fisk without proof, is a Zalim and mischief monger.

UNDER THE CIRCUMSTANCE - referring to any group of muslimeen as grave worshippers without knowledge of their belief and their intention is wrong and a big fasaat.

Because that's exactly what you guys do. You guys make sajdas on the graves of your Imams and chant Duas full of Shirk e.g Naad-e-Ali.

If that's not shirk than I don't know what is.